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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2018
     
    Just looking for a sanity check before I push the go button.

    Super insulated renovation, family of four, no mains gas, no space for oil or LPG tank, currently E7

    Planned system due to cost is:

    Stage 1.
    Newark thermal store - 300l, 2 x immersion, heat pump coil, either PHX or DHW coil?

    Stage 2.

    UFH downstairs and upstairs on separate loops.
    12kW ASHP (FIT) into bottom of store


    Any thoughts appreciated.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2018
     
    Hiya,

    What is the heating requirement of the home ?

    gg
    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2018 edited
     
    Calculated heat losses are going to peak at about 1.4kW per hour at 20 degree delta t, so allowing for appliance gain and wood burner could almost not need the upstairs UFH. We've spent a lot of money on insulation - hence not having any left for the ASHP or to pay a plumber to fit an unvented system!

    Any thoughts of the Gledhill Torrent - ASHP direct into store no coil?
  1.  
    The perceived wisdom is to separate CH from DHW as the demands of each are different temps. and at different times. The 300lts is not much to supply both CH and DHW. ASHP loose efficiency at DHW temps. so perhaps a separate DHW tank on E7 might make sense. If FIT requires DHW from a HP then get a tank with a coil and don't / minimise usage.
    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeJun 28th 2018
     
    Thanks Peter,

    I had been guided largely by the Gledhill documentation which has the UFH heating flow and rtn in the bottom half of the tank alongside the HP coil, with the primary immersion mid tank. Effectively the bottom third of the tank is buffer and the top two thirds thermal store for mains pressure DHW - if that makes sense.

    Hopefully this snip from the Gledhill Guide works okay.
      Capture1.PNG
  2.  
    Gledhill are in the business of selling their products, this is not to say that their product is bad, just that it may not be the best for your situation. (This applies to any TS in the 300lt size running CH and DHW)
    The bottom 1/3 of the tank being the buffer for the CH - 100lts of HP heated water goes nowhere when considering CH. IMO at best it could act as a mixer for multiple heat inputs. When the CH comes on the 100lts would probably get the pipes warm and not much else.

    Do you plan to run the ASHP with solar PV or E7?

    You say there is no space for a propane tank. Have you considered a couple of 47kg propane bottles? 47kg propane is about 650kWh which at your projected heat demand of 1.4kWh at delta 20deg. gives about 19 days continuous use. (please check my figures) if you have a wood stove as well then this might be an option. The advantage would be a main stream gas boiler which would probably be a much cheaper installation cost than a (sophisticated) TS and an ASHP. (how noisy are modern ASHPs?) E7 is off peak - yes? heating won't be needed off peak so the CH will be at full rate. E7 would be fine for a standard DHW immersion tank.
    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeJun 28th 2018
     
    We considered propane but built the house to avoid it - fitting now would be really difficult.

    I'm not planning on running the UFH without the ASHP running at the same time, the thermal store is really a way of getting mains pressure DHW without the need for a G3 cert and annual check. Plumbers round here are trying to charge £1k++ to fit unvented, I was quoted £3.5 to fit unvented, ASHP all pre-plumbed!

    We have a woodburner but not connected to tank.
  3.  
    The 47kg propane cylinders can be stored against a wall with 1m clearance to an opening window (plus a couple of other requirements) so not that difficult to place.

    I can't understand the paranoia about unvented cylinders in the UK. Over here there are everywhere, (no unvented cylinders), you go to the shop, buy one of the size to suit up to 200lts, take it home, hang it on the wall and enjoy. (200lts costs about 300GBP) and you don't hear of failures. The hard water means that every 5 years or so you need to take out the heating element on its base plate and replace it, a DIY job.

    Can you run the CH on the ASHP without the TS so just use the vented TS for DHW? Then have a simple vented DHW cylinder with a PHX. That should be (much) cheaper than a sophisticated TS
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 28th 2018
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryI can't understand the paranoia about unvented cylinders in the UK.

    Some historical paranoia plus the requirement for an annual inspection, presumably as a result of the paranoia, presumably as a result of some accidents in the past. Or maybe just generalised paranoia based on historical experience with steam?

    Then have a simple vented DHW cylinder with a PHX. That should be (much) cheaper than a sophisticated TS

    The only complexity in a thermal store is the control unit and pump needed to feed the PHX with hot water at the correct rate to ensure a stable output temperature, which would be needed in any case.
  4.  
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jbreKn4PoAc

    Edit: this is the discovery channel episode where they heat an unvented cylinder until it explodes. The shell acts like a rocket and blows through the roof and high in the air.
    They don't explain the physics - the pressure holds the water in a superheated state until the cylinder cracks and releases pressure, then the water transforms violently into steam in a BLEVE explosion. A vented cylinder cannot do this as the water cannot get superheated.
  5.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryI can't understand the paranoia about unvented cylinders in the UK.

    Some historical paranoia plus the requirement for an annual inspection, presumably as a result of the paranoia, presumably as a result of some accidents in the past. Or maybe just generalised paranoia based on historical experience with steam?

    What about unvented CH systems - do these need annual checks, if not then why DHW cylinders.

    Posted By: djh
    Then have a simple vented DHW cylinder with a PHX. That should be (much) cheaper than a sophisticated TS

    The only complexity in a thermal store is the control unit and pump needed to feed the PHX with hot water at the correct rate to ensure a stable output temperature, which would be needed in any case.

    Taking theCH out of the TS means that a smaller cylinder can be used according to the DHW requirement and if a PHX is used then without any internal coils.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: djh
    The only complexity in a thermal store is the control unit and pump needed to feed the PHX with hot water at the correct rate to ensure a stable output temperature, which would be needed in any case.


    This I tried to address by including a Danfoss RAVK valve at the primary side of the PHX right at the pump output. The temperature sensing blob sits at the secondary side, so the thermal store pump gets pinched off harder the hotter the hot water becomes. It works fairly well to even out the heat draw off, although hot water temperature still gets quite high at low flow conditions, as the RAVK is designed never to close fully.
    Alternatives would be to include a mixing valve, or a solution with lots of electronics doing the same thing as the RAVK, but better (and less reliable).
    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2018
     
    Peter - I do agree re unvented cylinders but thems the rules. Equally to be able to claim FIT the ASHP needs to be installed according to manufacturers instructions etc which generally call for a 3sqm+ coil. To be honest I'm not sure a 250l-300l vented tank with either PHX or DHW coil really counts as a TS because as you suggest its not actually storing very much energy.
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