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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2018
     
    Posted By: gyrogearYou might be in a radiofrequency protection area...

    What is one of those?

    Are there any airport, military or police, medical or education (esp. pre-school) installations nearby ?

    It's perfectly normal to use mobile phones in airports, police stations, medical and educational institutions. I don't know about military installations, but I expect there too. All except for specific areas of course.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228352464_Protection_of_airport_facilities_through_radio_frequency_transparent_fences_the_SAS_project

    What is the relevance of this paper? It appears to be about blast-proof, radio transparent fence design.

    No smart meters near anything military in France ! LOL

    What technology do French smart meters use?
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018 edited
     
    "radiofrequency protection area"

    What is one of those?

    An area where use of RF usage is monitored or prohibited (such as US fire stations, Spanish gendarmeries, French infant schools, parts of hospitals, airports etc. etc.).

    « It's perfectly normal to use mobile phones in airports, police stations, medical and educational institutions. I don't know about military installations, but I expect there too. All except for specific areas of course ».

    But the topic is not so much about mobile phones, as RF radiation.
    (A smart meter is not a mobile phone, even if it does employ some ''mobile-phone'' technology...).

    Here is a general outline of the French smart-meter programme.
    https://www.smart-energy.com/features-analysis/smart-meters-101-frances-linky-electricity-meters/

    Upstream, the meters use LF RF powerline communication to transmit to a local concentrator, which uses GPRS (UHF) to transmit to a central data storage facility.
    Downstream, the meter uses LF RF powerline communication to collect data from the site (home).
    http://ace.hendaye.over-blog.fr/2016/09/reponse-a-la-lettre-type-d-enedis-ex-erdf-envoyee-aux-citoyens-qui-refusent-le-compteur-malfaisant-linky.html

    Meters operate in gangs of up to 1200 sites, and all meters in the gang talk to each other continually, and the head-of-gang sends the bursts to the concentrator...

    (As regards the non-rollout at military sites, that I heard from a retired EDF manager, in a public meeting...).

    So my thought was, if the OP has not been installed with a smart meter, perhaps he could be living in a controlled RF area ??

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018
     
    Right but we're talking about the UK, so you need to look at UK regs, not US, Spanish or French. And we're talking about UK SMETS2 meters, which don't work like that.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018
     
    I don't think Triassic's OP said if it was a SMETs 1 or 2.
    I read too that was that GCHQ were unhappy about SMETS 2 security, maybe an urban myth I don't know.
    What happens when the manufacture of these devices is outsourced to the Far East with all the potential security issues that poses.

    I'm just old fashioned but I'm capable of reading a meter and emailing the results to my supplier, that's all they need to know, and it's as much as I want to give.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeSep 4th 2018
     
    I’ve recently had a new meter fitted as part of self Build project. I’d assumed I’d have to have a smart meter. However they installed a normal meter, which I find strange. Why when you are doing a meter change would you not square bst all a smart meter.


    Apparently there is a shortage of engineers trained to fit smart meters, but not ordinary meters.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2018
     
    The news that each nation has its own, incompatible, approach to smart metering is amazingly short sighted.

    I bet, like the Thatcher govt's vision of 'Information Superhighway' that consisted of cheapskate cabling of the most lucratively dense areas, which have faded into near-irrelevance, today's smart meters will be obsoleted soon enough by new technologies.
  1.  
    A friend fits these and said the problem is that once fitted you have to wait for up to 1 hour for them to sync up. But the elec company sets the same amount of install time as for a dumb meter. So no one wants to fit them, no surprise.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomThe news that each nation has its own, incompatible, approach to smart metering is amazingly short sighted.

    I bet, like the Thatcher govt's vision of 'Information Superhighway' that consisted of cheapskate cabling of the most lucratively dense areas, which have faded into near-irrelevance, today's smart meters will be obsoleted soon enough by new technologies.


    What do you mean "soon".

    http://www.nickhunn.com/the-uk-may-need-to-replace-20-million-smart-meters/

    Quote:

    The fact that 20 million smart meters may need to be replaced may sound bizarre, especially given the fact that so far only around eight million have been installed as part of the GB Smart Metering deployment, but unfortunately it looks as if it could be true.

    snip

    The need to replace the meters currently being installed is a question that the industry has been keen to sweep under the carpet. Cracks started to appear in that approach at the end of April, when the DCC – the company run by Capita and which will receive data from the smart meters finally admitted to the BBC’s Money Box programme that none of the six million smart meters that had then been installed were likely to work with its software.

    snip

    The bigger question is: Why, if we need to replace 20 million or more meters, don’t we stop and do it properly? Installing 20 million obsolete meters, at a cost of over £3 billion is stupid. All of the evidence from other countries who have gone down the smart meter route is that smart meters don’t last very long, so it is ridiculous to start off with horrendously expensive meters which will get thrown away after a few years. Italy is quietly embarking on a national smart meter replacement scheme less than ten years after their original deployment, based on lessons learnt. We should talk to them.

    continues.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018
     
    IoT means sensors on just about every appliance, light bulb, light bulb holder, wiring terminal within the holder and so on down, all able to report their data autonomously. So what use then the big expensive meter/data sender per household, especially as that data is dumbly aggregated and will have to be disaggregated, per person, per appliance etc, to be useful for ever-more ambitious categories of analysis. The data-collectors won't be satisfied.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomThe data-collectors won't be satisfied.


    On the contrary, they will have a field day !

    They will use massively parallel processing to strip and sort the data, then use same to profile consumers, streets, quarters and towns. Commercial data will be sold to household-appliance retailers etc. Consumer profiles will be sold to banks and insurance companies etc.

    Thus swimming-pool owners will be profiled one way, and electric-car owners another way.

    Same houses with same-age construction dates and same-age occupants will get similar commercial offers because all of their fridges and cookers etc. will be coming to end-of-life around the same time... And the new appliances they purchase as replacements will all be microchipped and RFI'D and so the slog continues ad infinitum...

    The electric co will then offer "tailored contracts" to entice users into certain regimes, and "punish" other users ("recalcitrants") for their wasteful habits.

    The electric companies will profile mass consumption (of quarters, suburbs, cities...) in the quest for "smarter cities" to generate savings and supposedly improve the citizen's lot.

    Power generators will smarten their grid distribution and generating capacity so that they don't have to buy as many GWh from the online markets.

    Where power gets scarce around 7 on a cold February night, to ensure there is enough to go around, the power generator will simply 'kill' all the hot-water cylinders in a give street or quarter or city, as being the least-bad option to let folks fry their egg & chips etc.

    Showers can wait when Big Brother is Washing You...
    :devil:

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018
     
    Yes all of that or similar and prob much more.

    But will it happen via each households single smart meter, or bypassing same direct to mulitplicity of chips - in ea appliance, light bulb etc? I'm guessing that nothing less than that level of granularity (or more) will 'satisfy' the data collectors - smart meters will soon be obsolete.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018
     
    Posted By: fostertomIoT means sensors on just about every appliance, light bulb, light bulb holder, wiring terminal within the holder and so on down, all able to report their data autonomously.

    Err, then I for one wouldn't buy them, just as I don't buy smart products today. But even if I was forced to buy them, they wouldn't be able to report anything, because I would configure my network to prevent it.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: djhI would configure my network to prevent it.


    How would you do that when the meter is continuously observing *every* electrical user via powerline communication, and uploading the load curve every ten minutes to the concentrator at end of the street, which in turn is uploading it via GPRS to a data center hundreds of kilometers away, to which droves of start-ups staffed by latest-generation geeks are poring over it 24/7 ?

    (which is how it works in France...)

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2018
     
    With impeccable timing, I saw this was just published:

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611948/for-safetys-sake-we-must-slow-innovation-in-internet-connected-things/

    As to your question, gg, the answer is that I don't live in France. And in this country (the UK) I don't have a smart meter. What somewhat surprises me is that I haven't even been invited to have one yet, so I haven't had to refuse.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2018
     
    Posted By: djhAs to your question, gg, the answer is that I don't live in France. And in this country (the UK) I don't have a smart meter. What somewhat surprises me is that I haven't even been invited to have one yet, so I haven't had to refuse.


    Good for you, then !

    gg
  2.  
    So having specifically requested a standard (ie. non-smart) meter at every point in the process I’ve been contacted the afternoon before our install to be told that the installer doesn’t have any in stock and needs a longer notice period to order a standard meter...of course they have loads of SMETs 1 meters ready to go.

    Fairly shoddy behaviour but we’ve already rearranged childcare and leave from work to wait for this, so have effectively been forced into accepting as we urgently need power on site.

    I’ve asked that they don’t install the comms so that it acts like a traditional meter but suspect they’ll just connect it anyway.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2018
     
    If it were me I'd raise a formal complaint.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2018
     
    When I first installed PV I had one of the old rotary analogue meters, as soon as they found out it was running backwards they were on site like a shot with a new digital non smart meter.
    I don't believe the well of standard non-smart digital meters has run dry, because of the roll out of SMETs. PV equipment suppliers have loads of not dissimilar ones on stock. It's akin to forced compliance, adoption of new technology by stealth.
    They are not that expensive, suggest to them that you buy and supply a new one for them to fit. It's only a bl..dy counter after all.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2018 edited
     
    I don't think the energy company has to install/upgrade/downgrade your meter. There seems to be several companies offering to do it for you. Just two examples google found..

    https://www.gasandelectricityconnections.co.uk/electricity-supply/

    https://www.crownenergy.co.uk/gas-electricity-meter-installations/

    The latter claims a 5 day service.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2018
     
    or perhaps you could just wrap it in tinfoil :-)
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2018
     
    Anyone seen or heard the claim that smart meters (laughably) could save us three cities worth of electricity were we all to have one?
  3.  
    What, a city? :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2018 edited
     
    No three cities
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2018
     
    What, we're all to have three cities each? :bigsmile:
  4.  
    I couldn't even eat one.
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