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General: Smart meters. ( again)

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    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2018 edited
     
    Nor are the claims that they are safe from Data security concerns IMO.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeFeb 13th 2019 edited
     
    Watch out - You Are Being Profiled !

    (and Monetised !)

    And it only costs you the price of a cup of coffee !

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FWhByEPBWfuKVuGpKo2q8_qfIPfsWzDy/view

    gg
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2019
     
    • CommentAuthordickster
    • CommentTimeFeb 19th 2019
     
    So, now I've got a Powerwall 2 that I can tell when to charge from the grid, it makes sense to get an economy 7 type meter installed. Recently moved to Ecotricity, told that I can have an E7 meter, but not an old type, will have to be Smartmeter. I say we haven't got mobile phone reception, they say, Ok you'll have to give us the monthly readings. I say OK. Will be fitted this afternoon.

    Never thought I'd be getting one. Let's see what happens.....
    • CommentAuthordickster
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2019 edited
     
    Result!

    Meter man turned up, says there's no phone signal, why do I want a smartmeter? I say I don't, but I'm told that that's all that is available. He says he's got a brand new old style digital meter in van. One phone call and hey presto!, Stupidmeter is installed.

    Good bloke, who then states the obvious. E7 Smartmeter needs to phone home to know what the time is, so wouldn't have worked anyway.

    Interestingly, the new meter's clock is 30 minutes fast. Set the Powerwall for a 2 hour charge (6.8 kWh) from 1-3 am. (cloudy today). All worked well.

    :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2019
     
    Posted By: dicksterInterestingly, the new meter's clock is 30 minutes fast.

    If it's anything like mine (Landis+Gyr 5246C), it doesn't know about summertime. So in a month or so, it'll be half an hour slow.
    • CommentAuthordickster
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2019
     
    I'll keep an eye on the beast, thanks for that djh.
  8.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: dicksterInterestingly, the new meter's clock is 30 minutes fast.

    If it's anything like mine (Landis+Gyr 5246C), it doesn't know about summertime. So in a month or so, it'll be half an hour slow.

    30 mins. sounds like a good average to avoid a twice yearly visit to adjust the clock
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2019
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary30 mins. sounds like a good average to avoid a twice yearly visit to adjust the clock

    They don't adjust the clock, they just supply (well charge for) E7 power at different clock times.
  10.  
    Bulb are offering me a 3-tier tariff, which is cheaper outside their peak 4pm-7pm period, and cheaper still overnight. Anyone tried something like this? Obvs uses smart meter to tell how much electricity was used at what time.
      Screenshot_20190307-100305-480x853.png
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2019
     
    The problem is, once you sign up, they will observe your usage, then determine a *NEW* peak rate based on that !

    This is what smart meters are all about !

    gg
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2019
     
    Gyrogear - like you I am very suspicious about the motivation behind the smart meter ideology. If the supplier monitors our individual usages (which I am sure they will do) then are you saying that the definition of the peak time will be different for every customer and won't that be incredibly complicated to administer? I assumed that they will monitor usages and come up with a universally applicable peak time based on the average peak usage across the whole customer base?
  13.  
    Mmmm.. Guess they are also trying to shift demand to times they can buy wholesale electricity cheaper, it's half the price at 11pm than at 6pm
      Screenshot_20190307-132103-768x432.png
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: Jeff Bwon't that be incredibly complicated to administer?


    No, given the algorithms and computing power at the disposal of power generators and transporters...

    The intent is smart cities - as defined here:

    https://ec.europa.eu/info/eu-regional-and-urban-development/topics/cities-and-urban-development/city-initiatives/smart-cities_en

    =====
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenthey are also trying to shift demand to times they can buy wholesale electricity cheaper


    Yes, of course !
    But that is only a part of the argument and is "savings-generated",
    whereas the strategy is one of creating value-added by determining when the customer needs his electricity the most.

    Moreover, with smart meters, any considerations regarding "electricity" per se (even electricity pricing and even grid-management...) fade into insignificance in relation to the big data aspects (population habits, consumer profiling, the internet of things, swarming of new technologies, population control even).

    "Technology swarming" applying particularly to electric cars: with 10% electric cars on the roads, governments will lose out on lots of fuel tax - they have to recoup this loss by other means, viz. by transferring the fuel tax to your electricity contract.

    Once you acquire an electric car and start charging it overnight, to go to the office the next day, do you really think that your offpeak tarrif will remain overnight ? LOL

    In France, 10% electric vehicles on the road also means building two new nuclear generating stations !
    Who pays for that, other than ... EDF ?

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2019
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenBulb are offering me a 3-tier tariff, which is cheaper outside their peak 4pm-7pm period, and cheaper still overnight. Anyone tried something like this? Obvs uses smart meter to tell how much electricity was used at what time.

    I have an E7 account with them and where I live the standing charge is the same as you've been offered. My overnight rate is a bit less at 7.592p and my day rate is intermediate between your peak and day rates at 15.939p. I suppose I could work out how much I use between the different time, but I don't suppose it will make much difference. Our usage between 4 and 6 is minimal and after that there's cooking loads. Looks like we use about 2 kWh during peak period.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2019
     
    Posted By: gyrogear
    Posted By: Jeff Bwon't that be incredibly complicated to administer?

    No, given the algorithms and computing power at the disposal of power generators and transporters...

    I don't think it's a technical question, it's a political one. There'll be screams everywhere if suppliers try to offer different rates for different periods to different people (it's already difficult for them to explain different prices in different areas). Indeed without checking, I'd be surprised if it wasn't illegal. Utilities are heavily regulated.

    Bulb has prided itself on only having one tariff, indeed it still does so! So I'll be interested to see how this experiment works out.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2019
     
    Octopus lets you back out of its time-of-use (ToU) Agile tariff without penalty if it does not suit:

    http://www.earth.org.uk/Smart-Meters-2019-Conference.html#ToU

    One key element is getting people to shift demand to when power is *available* not just cheap. Clearly, those who can be flexible and wait until a windy sunny time to charge an EV not used very often will get a good price and make better use of grid and renewables...

    Rgds

    Damon
  18.  
    Thanks Damon that looks like an interesting tariff.

    Octopus say https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-feb-2019/

    "SMETS2 meters have been subject to a number of delays and are not yet fully available, and it's fair to say that whilst SMETS2 is an upgrade, it's still very new and so the tech is still not quite as smooth to install as SMETS1. We placed contracts for SMETS2 meters months ago, but have been advised that delivery dates are not being met for us or other suppliers.
    .... we are ... Temporarily suspending any more smart meter bookings for dates after March 15th because we cannot be sure what quantity of SMETS2 meters we will have available"
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2019
     
    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-6827997/Dont-fall-dumb-smart-meter-Energy-firms-continue-offering-generation-devices.html

    Energy firms to continue offering first generation devices for months...

    Published: 22:01, 19 March 2019 | Updated: 09:16, 20 March 2019

    Providers were expected to stop offering first-generation meters, known as Smets1, from March 15 as they often stop working when you switch suppliers.

    But British Gas, SSE, EDF Energy, Eon, npower and Scottish Power have confirmed they are still installing the older meters.

    The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy says suppliers should be ramping up installations of second-generation meters — Smets2 — which still work after changing provider.

    Rik Smith, of comparison site uSwitch, says check you are getting a Smets2 model before agreeing to have one put in.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2019
     
    tony advises against getting a smart meter at all.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2019
     
    My gripe with all this smart metering is that you can't have your data as it is all "owned" by the energy supplier. Apart from this being very wrong as a principle, if you want to assess whether that new A+ rated fridge is really better than the old one, you need high accuracy data over weeks if not months or years. Although smart meters can supply these figures, no energy supplier will let you have that data (your data!).
    If I have to run my own metering to get decent monitoring anyway, I don't see why I would want a smart meter. The dumber the better, in fact.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: bhommels
    If I have to run my own metering to get decent monitoring anyway, I don't see why I would want a smart meter. The dumber the better, in fact.


    +1 Yes,- That's what I've done, and monitors my grid tied Solar too - and, now why I keep refusing to have a smart meter fitted, I've got all the info I need, and I own it..
  23.  
    AIUI, the data is absolutely owned by the customer and is covered by GDPR as well as the electricity licencing legislation. The meter stores readings in half-hour buckets and sends these data to an independent Data Communication Company, who dish them out on a 'need to know' basis - eg suppliers can see monthly billing data and the network co can see voltage data, but not the other way round. The consumer can give/withdraw consent for the supplier to get half-hour readings. The consumer can request a copy of the half hourly data that is held, though this frequently won't help monitor your fridge.

    The meter also broadcasts a short range (in home) signal every 10 seconds to your display unit. You should be able to connect securely to this with your own device to log your data although this seems to be in infancy at the moment. Lots of forums about this.
  24.  
    I see that some smart meter tariffs are now offering 4 hours of electricity early each morning at 5p a kWh, which is much cheaper than E7 and competitive with gas. They seem to be aimed at EV chargers but I don't see why thermal-storers shouldn't also benefit, or overnight tumble dryers. Has anyone dipped a toe in this area?
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2019
     
    I guess it is in order to build dependency...

    gg
    • CommentAuthorsam_cat
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2019
     
    " They seem to be aimed at EV chargers but I don't see why thermal-storers shouldn't also benefit, or overnight tumble dryers. Has anyone dipped a toe in this area?"

    Or dishwasher on a timer, washing machine on a timer, immersion heater, home battery (powerwall etc) etc etc..

    All our devices have timers, as it helps with the solar and being at work, this would add another option which would be quite nice.

    Might hunt a tariff out like that, would be nice in the winter months when the sun doesnt shine.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2019
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenAIUI, the data is absolutely owned by the customer and is covered by GDPR as well as the electricity licencing legislation. The meter stores readings in half-hour buckets and sends these data to an independent Data Communication Company, who dish them out on a 'need to know' basis - eg suppliers can see monthly billing data and the network co can see voltage data, but not the other way round. The consumer can give/withdraw consent for the supplier to get half-hour readings. The consumer can request a copy of the half hourly data that is held, though this frequently won't help monitor your fridge.

    The meter also broadcasts a short range (in home) signal every 10 seconds to your display unit. You should be able to connect securely to this with your own device to log your data although this seems to be in infancy at the moment. Lots of forums about this.

    OK, admittedly I am behind the developments then. I stopped looking when I found that the in-home displays I have seen did not log the data beyond a week without sparsification, and offered no means of transferring the numbers directly. This might have changed, although I think it would be better to capture the broadcast signal as you say. It does all sound a lot more complicated than reading the SD card from my monitor though.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2019
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI see that some smart meter tariffs

    Is there a list of these tariffs somewhere?
  29.  
  30.  
    Well I have not been able to sign up with the two most promising 5p tariffs, because I have neither a smart meter nor an EV yet. Possibly there is a launch publicity element to this as GG suggested.

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