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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorKBabs
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2018
     
    Hello

    During this wet weather, my fibreglass cavity wall insulation is getting wet while the walls to an extension are going up. I asked the building to cover them up but he said it doesn't matter as it will dry out.

    Is he right? I guess it will eventually? Some of the insulation hasn't quite expanded fully, I'm assuming due to the water making it heavier than normal. Will it expand over time as it dries out?

    Thanks!
  1.  
    The insulation will eventually dry out - if it dries out quickly this could indicate a cavity with a lot of air flow, which is what you don't want. Of course it depends upon the extent of the building and how far up the walls have gone. IMO the insulation will not recover its expanded state of its own volition once it has sagged due to the weight of water (rain)

    I have found that very few builders have good attention to detail and typically they hate doing remedial work. The insulation is in the cavity and the thickness of the material would have been as detailed on the plans. The thickness actually achieved will be of little concern to the builder in the same way as gaps at the insulation joins will also not bother the builder - once the walls are up no one can see what has happened! Of course your builder may be different...........
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 6th 2018
     
    It will dry out, think how many homes have been built with cavity batts and how often it rained during the construction period, it can’t be a problem
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeDec 6th 2018
     
    How would anyone know if their house was loosing 10% more heat than the house down the road that was built in the dry?
  2.  
    In a cavity wall, the outer leaf is colder than the inner, especially if it is well insulated. Moisture vapour diffuses and permeates from inside the house and will condense when it reaches the outer leaf, if the outside is cold enough. The outer leaf is also wetted by rain, that's why there's a cavity in the first place.

    These mean that the cavity is (by design) often a bit damp and CW insulation is expected to cope with being wetted and dried throughout its life, so organic material is not used.
  3.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThese mean that the cavity is (by design) often a bit damp and CW insulation is expected to cope with being wetted and dried throughout its life, so organic material is not used.

    But CW insulation installed at build is fixed to the inner leaf so there will be a gap between the insulation and the outer leaf so the insulation should not get wet.

    Wot philedge said +1
  4.  
    Agree with P-in-H re CWI on dry inner leaf. In a humid atmosphere, yes, but damp?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 6th 2018
     
    Better define what damp means then
  5.  
    Yes, point taken - and I probably can't!

    I guess I probably meant that reading a bit higher than normal on a moisture meter (yes, I know we cannot get one in the cavity) is acceptable, but (even occasionally) squidgily moist (not an SI unit!) probably isn't.
  6.  
    Just dont build with cavities! I realise I'm being glib, but the original purpose of the cavity was to prevent damp, by creating an air break. Now we fill it with insulation!
    Just be certain that the external skin is properly watertight. Render, cladding, etc.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2018
     
    Doesn’t stop construction moisture and can enhance interstitial condensation by not allowing it out!
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2018
     
    Tony, your build is full fill with no render is it not?

    Unrelated to Tony's house, but this won't help: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46454844
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2018
     
    Yes and insulation is dry and no problems, I did use high lime mortar
    • CommentAuthorDonkey
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2018
     
    OP should let the builder know when the building is complete a thermal imaging camera will be used to view the quality of the fitting of the insulation. If this shows incorrect fitting it will be the builders liability.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2018
     
    Posted By: DonkeyOP should let the builder know when the building is complete a thermal imaging camera will be used to view the quality of the fitting of the insulation. If this shows incorrect fitting it will be the builders liability.

    Good idea but might prove difficult in practice. If the insulation is wet to start with it will take a long time to dry out and make the thermal readings reliable - I would guess at least a year. Might induce the builder to do a good job though!
  7.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: DonkeyOP should let the builder know when the building is complete a thermal imaging camera will be used to view the quality of the fitting of the insulation. If this shows incorrect fitting it will be the builders liability.

    Good idea but might prove difficult in practice...................... Might induce the builder to do a good job though!

    +1
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2018
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Donkey</cite> If this shows incorrect fitting it will be the builders liability.</blockquote>

    Cant really see any builder taking down the outer leaf of a new build to remedy a "leak". Best ditching the bricky and getting one that sees thermal "leaks" the same way as a plumber sees water leaks ie not acceptable.
  8.  
    Posted By: philedge
    Posted By: Donkey If this shows incorrect fitting it will be the builders liability.


    Cant really see any builder taking down the outer leaf of a new build to remedy a "leak". Best ditching the bricky and getting one that sees thermal "leaks" the same way as a plumber sees water leaks ie not acceptable.

    I think the point is that if the builder knows up front that his cavity insulation work will be checked with a thermal camera then the need for the camera will diminish (to zero?) because the builder will not want to be called back and shown evidence of his bad workmanship.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2018
     
    Dream on!
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2018
     
    Is an IR camera really good enough to see <10mm gaps through the masonry?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2018
     
    Yes
  9.  
    you need to choose the right time to use the IR camera i.e. warm the house for a good time and take the picture when the weather is frosty - preferably in the negative.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2018
     
    Realistically what is your bricky/builder going to do with what would a completed house by the time you can do a meaningful I R survey?

    Best ditch the bricky/builder at the start of the job if your not happy with the detail
  10.  
    Posted By: philedgeRealistically what is your bricky/builder going to do with what would a completed house by the time you can do a meaningful I R survey?

    Best ditch the bricky/builder at the start of the job if your not happy with the detail

    The same as any other claim about faulty CWI.
    Ditching the builder is only of benefit if the next one is better.
    I have found that supervision is about the only thing that works to get builders to pay attention to detail. The aim here would be to focus the mind of the builder to the fact that checks are and will be made regarding his work and any remedial action will be sought. Errors have to be brought to attention at the time and excuses not accepted (especially "we always do it that way!"). Once the standards are pointed out and spot checks are made and the builder knows that you mean business then usually things improve.
    If not - change the builder - if you can find one in your time scale.
    • CommentAuthorDonkey
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2018
     
    Take lots of photos as the build progresses, especially anything you are not happy with or are unsure about.

    Our build is being done with the aim of having a Passive house certificate at completion. Part of the certification process involves sending lots of photos to the verifiers. I believe the builders are taking more care because I am taking so many photos. Because they know I have to take photos to achieve Passive status they don't think I am just taking the photos to catch them out so our relationship is good.

    Perhaps it's just because they know I'm a fussy b******!
  11.  
    On the topic of IR cameras, does anyone rate the online hire route?

    Our new build isn't quite as toasty warm as I (and my family) were hoping. Since the timber cladding is only just about to go on, I'm wondering about running around with an IR camera now before we really are too late to get at any gaps.

    Only problem is the new cameras all begin upwards of £200 for a half decent resolution and I'm not planning on doing this as a career.

    Most hire places seem to lend them out at about £70 a day so the difference isn't that much but it's one less depreciating asset to own...plus they post out and collect so it looks like a fairly easy arrangement.

    What I don't want is to pay all that money for one that's uncalibrated and has been dropped a few times. Has anyone tried the hiring route?
  12.  
    One route would be to buy one new - do the necessary, in your own time (i.e.wait for the cold night to get the best differential) - then sell on.

    For the second hand market you are not interested in the absolute numbers (as in well in calibration) but rather the difference between one area and the next which is about definition which should be easy to check. On use, having used one on brick and stone walls it was as useful to do the inside as the outside and I would reckon to do both.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2018
     
    I borrowed an IR camera, then hired someone with their own camera who knew what they were doing and the difference was significant... The cost of the latter was not that bad.

    http://www.earth.org.uk/thermal-imaging-survey-of-house.html

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2018
     
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasOn the topic of IR cameras, does anyone rate the online hire route?

    Our new build isn't quite as toasty warm as I (and my family) were hoping. Since the timber cladding is only just about to go on, I'm wondering about running around with an IR camera now before we really are too late to get at any gaps.

    I have hired one and it worked out alright. Check it's a recent model, some of the old ones have awkward focal ranges which means you have to stand well back from the area inspected.

    However i would suggest you hire a reputable air tester for half a day instead who has an IR camera. The reason being you cover more likely causes of the heat loss because you can still check for TBs and check what the leakage is.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: KBabsDuring this wet weather, my fibreglass cavity wall insulation is getting wet while the walls to an extension are going up. I asked the building to cover them up but he said it doesn't matter as it will dry out.

    Whether or not they will dry out, a good builder should be installing the batts following the requirements of the Agrément Certificate (whether or not you required them to do so in your contract).

    At least in the case of Rockwool the certificate requires protection against rain - "Exposed areas of batts should always be covered at the end of the day’s work or in driving rain (and also specifies other requirements that are frequently ignored through ignorance or laziness - leading with the the outer leaf first, use of cavity boards, correct installation of wall ties, correct butting of batts, etc.)

    Failure to follow such requirements may constitute a breach of their contract with you.
   
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