General: UK housing: Fit for the future?

91 to 120 of 120

- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 4th 2020
Posted By: djh
Posted By: JontiIt certainly is an effort to be self sufficient but that is the way that we need to go.

Why do you think it is necessary or even a good idea for every property to be self-sufficient? Why are communal schemes bad? What is wrong with local, national, international and even intercontinental electricity transmission?

It makes people more aware of what their consumption rates are as well as making people and therefore the country more resilient.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 4th 2020 edited
Posted By: JontiIt makes people more aware of what their consumption rates are as well as making people and therefore the country more resilient.

And you seriously think that's a good enough reason to make it compulsory?

PS So you're suggesting that the only windpower that is acceptable is individual units fitted in private gardens? Or you think that we should abandon windpower altogether? Ditto tidal, wave power, hydro, geothermal etc etc.
- CommentAuthorphiledge
- CommentTimeJul 4th 2020
Posted By: Jonti

It makes people more aware of what their consumption rates are as well as making people and therefore the country more resilient.

From what youre suggesting the country wont need any resilience as it will be every one for themselves. I think capital cost would preclude everyone being self sufficient and as the tax payer has already paid for communal infrastructure I dont see how global self sufficiency would be funded.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
Posted By: djh
Posted By: JontiIt makes people more aware of what their consumption rates are as well as making people and therefore the country more resilient.

And you seriously think that's a good enough reason to make it compulsory?

PS So you're suggesting that the only windpower that is acceptable is individual units fitted in private gardens? Or you think that we should abandon windpower altogether? Ditto tidal, wave power, hydro, geothermal etc etc.

djh,

I don't believe I ever used or suggested it should be 'compulsory'. Nor do I say that ALL a properties energy needs should be covered by its own capacity to generate just that it should be self sufficient meaning able to function through its own efforts.

It would be nice if when you read something you either do not agree with or perhaps misinterpret that you engage in a manner where you might find more clarity.

Posted By: philedge
Posted By: Jonti

It makes people more aware of what their consumption rates are as well as making people and therefore the country more resilient.

From what youre suggesting the country wont need any resilience as it will be every one for themselves. I think capital cost would preclude everyone being self sufficient and as the tax payer has already paid for communal infrastructure I dont see how global self sufficiency would be funded.

So are you suggesting that nobody should do any work on improving their properties? and just what am I suggesting in your opinion that it causes such an outlandish post by yourself?
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
Posted By: JontiI don't believe I ever used or suggested it should be 'compulsory'. Nor do I say that ALL a properties energy needs should be covered by its own capacity to generate just that it should be self sufficient meaning able to function through its own efforts.

What does making each property self-sufficient mean except that it would have to be compulsory? How else could you ensure each property did it?

And what does self sufficient mean if it doesn't mean each property has enough capacity to generate all its own energy needs?

You sound like a government department arguing for 'near-zero'.

PS How do you propose each property generate its own energy during the winter BTW?
- CommentAuthorWillInAberdeen
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

Jonti didn't mention compulsion. Many governments have preferred to use incentives (eg RHI) or cross-subsidy (FiT, ECO) or market forces (smart tariffs), rather than compulsory measures (eg rental EPCs).

AIUI, we currently deliver much more heating energy through gas pipes and motive energy through petrol pumps, than we do through electricity wires. When natural gas and petrol are phased out from the 2030s, it seems unlikely that the electricity network will be ready to take over all of that energy supply. So many households will need to gather a much greater proportion of their heating energy themselves, the CCC project this will require >20million heat pumps, with the residual balance of the heating delivered electrically. Heat pumps work just fine for gathering (solar) energy in midwinter.

Some homes will need a greater% of their heating to be delivered externally (eg blocks of flats) and some will generate a greater % themselves (eg rural passivhauses).
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
Posted By: WillInAberdeenJonti didn't mention compulsion. Many governments have preferred to use incentives (eg RHI) or cross-subsidy (FiT, ECO) or market forces (smart tariffs), rather than compulsory measures (eg rental EPCs).

Indeed but those don't reach his stated goal of "make each property self sufficient from an energy point of view", they only go part way towards it at best.

Heat pumps work just fine for gathering (solar) energy in midwinter.

Some homes will need a greater% of their heating to be delivered externally (eg blocks of flats) and some will generate a greater % themselves (eg rural passivhauses).

I don't disagree with any of that. But none of those descriptions match that of a house that is self-sufficient in energy. They all need to import electricity in winter to power the heat pumps. Very few houses have the space for a big enough PV installation to provide it and even if they do, it is unlikely to economic or a sensible use of resources. Ditto for individual batteries and individual heat storage systems at present and in the near future.

So I absolutely agree that we should encourage people to minimise their draw on external energy sources, but I don't believe that trying to reduce that draw to zero is a realistic goal for many houses, let alone 'each' (i.e. every) house. And just to be clear, I'm talking about instantaneous power usage, not net averages or other fudges.
- CommentAuthorphiledge
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
Posted By: Jonti

So are you suggesting that nobody should do any work on improving their properties? and just what am I suggesting in your opinion that it causes such an outlandish post by yourself?

You previously said that "self sufficiency was the way we need to go" which suggests a collective change where everyone has their own independant energy generation/storage. Of course people can improve their properties but what you appear to be suggesting seems to go way beyond some people doing some improvements.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
As other types of fuel such a gas, oil, wood are phased out through legislation (this is what might be considered compulsory) electricity is going to become one of the last energies left. Heating with electricity is an expensive way to do it so one way to make it affordable if through improving the insulation of a property and reducing the level of additional heating it requires. If done to a sufficient level such as a 'passivhaus' level then little to no extra heat is required and so the property can be reasonably be described as self sufficient.

This could be achieved through schemes where improvements were subsidised in a similar way to schemes in the past. There would be no need to make it compulsory and if people wanted to carry on paying over the odds for energy then that is their choice.

The same with electricity. As onsite generation and storage of electricity becomes more advanced it makes sense for each property to be able to cover its own basic energy needs. Lighting, cooking, food storage. Whether this is done through solar, wind and whether this is a total solo scheme or as part of a collective one is irrelevant.

To me it is the government that need to set the direction the country takes and the provide the means by which it is reached but that the population/individuals that implement it.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 5th 2020
Posted By: JontiIf done to a sufficient level such as a 'passivhaus' level then little to no extra heat is required and so the property can be reasonably be described as self sufficient.

That's not the case. PH requires that the space heating demand be less than 15 kWh/m² per year. In addition there's the DHW demand, plus cooking and all other energy uses. Primary energy demand was limited to less than 120 kWh/m² per year, now it's renewable primary energy that must be less than 60 kWh/m² per year. So PH are quite deliberately not self-sufficient. PH Plus and PH Premium must also include generation capacity, but these are not netted against consumption. The difficulty arises in the coldest winter months.

Whether this is done through solar, wind and whether this is a total solo scheme or as part of a collective one is irrelevant.

Now you're suggesting something quite different. As soon as you permit collective schemes then you cannot claim individual properties are self-sufficient (except via arbitrary and subject-to-exploitation rules). They rquire external connections to the communal schemes. I'm quite happy to move towards a world where property is improved and where energy is sometimes supplied by local, communal schemes. But I'm not convinced that local schemes are always the best way to do things - it makes a lot more sense to place wind turbines offshore in windy areas and transmit the power to where it is need in my opinion, for example, ceratinly internationally and perhaps intercontinentally.

It doesn't make sense in my mind to require or even subsidise battery storage at this point. Maybe at some time in the future it will make sense, but at present we just don't know. Once again though, the chief problem is not diurnal storage for lighting, cooking, DHW etc. The main problem is storage through the winter months to power the space heating. Why store electricity in a battery in every house when offshore wind farms and the likes of Dinorwig and the Norwegian schemes can meet the requirement?
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
djh,

if you want to take what I wrote, alter it and then answer your altered text go ahead. If you want to put a description on what 'self sufficient' is that makes it impossible to call anything self sufficient just so you can prove some small minded point then again feel free.

Of course you could counter my points with something of your own but then .......
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Posted By: Jontiif you want to take what I wrote, alter it and then answer your altered text go ahead. If you want to put a description on what 'self sufficient' is that makes it impossible to call anything self sufficient just so you can prove some small minded point then again feel free.

Self sufficient is easy - No external power sources.
- CommentAuthorJeff B
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
As I see it, energy self-sufficiency on an individual household basis would be “nice” (survivalists/preppers would love it of course) but impracticable for the foreseeable future. Self-sufficiency as a country is a different proposition and I think an admirable one.

As I have said in a previous post, in theory, IIUIC all the world’s electricity demand could be met by covering just 1% of the Sahara desert with PV panels but this region is “owned” by several north African countries whose governments aren’t exactly paragons of virtue and so could hold the entire world to ransom. A similar situation of course in the middle East where for too long oil rich countries have called the shots.

The UK is an island so surely we should have the goal of national self-sufficiency when it comes to electricity. OK we will probably not be able to garner much from PV generation but we have the incentive to invest heavily in other new green technology especially post-COVID when there could be a vast number of newly unemployed folk who can be retrained in installation of insulation and in manufacture of heat pumps etc. The issue of climate change has not gone away, although it may be on the “back burner” for now!
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Posted By: Jeff BA similar situation of course in the middle East where for too long oil rich countries have called the shots
What, you mean like being parcelled out amongst the imperial powers in 20s/30s and post WW2 subjected to three major oil wars so far and perpetual subversion/regime change/support of autocracies etc?
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Posted By: djh
Posted By: Jontiif you want to take what I wrote, alter it and then answer your altered text go ahead. If you want to put a description on what 'self sufficient' is that makes it impossible to call anything self sufficient just so you can prove some small minded point then again feel free.

Self sufficient is easy - No external power sources.

Then can you a name a single thing that on the planet that is self sufficient by your definition?
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Jeff B,

the energy requirement might be met but is it reliable, is it sustainable both fiscally and ecologically. Would it not be easier and more efficient to have power generation and end user closer together?

I would not restrict self sufficiency to meaning simply an isolated process. I would still consider being part of a larger group doing something together where there is an proportionate amount of input and output for an individual user as being self sufficient.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Posted By: JontiThen can you a name a single thing that on the planet that is self sufficient by your definition?

Any of the off-gridders on this forum, to start with.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Posted By: Jeff BThe UK is an island

Just to be picky - it's not. Britain is an island, which incorporates most of England, Wales and Scotland but not Northern Ireland, and not the various smaller islands that form part of each of these 'nations'. But that does rather point to some issues. Would it be better for Northern Ireland to be completely independent power-wise, or should it be linked to e.g. Scotland under the sea or should it link across the border to the Republic of Ireland. Should we be actively trying to close down all the interconnectors we already have with various parts of Europe, and stop the current projects to build new ones? What about the North Sea Ring Main? Should we abandon that since it's likely to involve international cooperation, and prefer to dig up lots more of Norfolk?

Electricity supply is not something that is inherently local or that respects national boundaries. There are good reasons for extending supply lines large distances north-south (to enable wind power averaging among other issues) and large distances east-west (to lengthen the period solar power is available as well as other concerns). There are good reasons for having multiple sources available to supply each point of consumption. Managing the complexity against economic, political and technological risks is a fairly well understood task that's been undertaken for quite a while now (with lots of political shenanigans especially trying to disrupt it).

To me, it seems a poor idea to reject all this.
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020 edited
Posted By: djhBritain is an island, which incorporates most of England, Wales and Scotland but not Northern Ireland
Not quite - that island is called 'Great Britain' hence UK of 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland' but strangely that doesn't include IoW or even Isle of Sheppey! - they are though included in the British Isles (which also includes Ireland!) i.e. the 'great' in GB isn't meant to include all the smaller islands of UK. Complicated - as Trump wisely explained to his constituency: 'A lot of people don't know that Scotland is part of England'.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
Posted By: fostertomNot quite - that island is called 'Great Britain'

Well, that's somewhat of a political statement. I vote for simplicity rather than embiggenment/aggrandisement.

It's no surprise that the name of an island doesn't include other islands though, surely? It must be annoying for some of the Irish to know they live in the British Isles!
- CommentAuthorWillInAberdeen
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020 edited
'Great' Britain was the name historically given to the island to distinguish it from 'Little' Britain, which is now known as Brittany. Those were the areas inhabited at the time by the Brythons/Britons/Bretons. They were pretty low on embiggenment, as evidenced by the use of the word 'Great', which comes from the language of the Germanic folks who were busy invading them. It has the same sense as in 'Great Crested Newt'. When viewed from the external perspective of modern French or German speakers it still has that meaning.

Going back to energy, nobody is 'self sufficient' when the energy embodied in providing their goods, services, food etc are considered, so there is always a need for communal generation.

There are great opportunities for a sunnyish windy wavy tidal country that can export energy to its neighbours (or so says Scottish economic policy). But it would have to be traded an extraordinary long distance East to overcome day/night peaks, nevermind South to overcome winter/summer swings. So some form of regional self sufficiency with interseasonal storage and excess generation capacity will be required. No idea how the economics will work for that.
- CommentAuthorJeff B
- CommentTimeJul 6th 2020
The UK is made up of England, Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland. The first 3 are on one island and the 4th on another island, hence I used the term island in the general sense. djh - it was not my intention to exclude N.Ireland from a UK-wide energy self-sufficiency scheme!

In an ideal world a joint cooperative international scheme would be great. The windiest places could utilise wind turbines, the sunniest PV solar, and the coastal regions wave/tidal power and the electricity generated shared around the world. Unfortunately as I said previously this is not an ideal world, with many different political ideologies at play. We need the assurance that our electricity supply is secure, especially if "the future is electric", hence self sufficiency is a must, whether countrywide or at individual house level or a combination of both.
- CommentAuthorJeff B
- CommentTimeJul 7th 2020
Should have added hydro of course!
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeJul 7th 2020 edited
Posted By: djhthat's somewhat of a political statement. I vote for simplicity rather than embiggenment/aggrandisement
Not political - is old naming that you'll find on old maps, Wikipedia etc. Believe me, I have no interest in painting Britain 'great'!
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 8th 2020
Posted By: djh
Posted By: JontiThen can you a name a single thing that on the planet that is self sufficient by your definition?

Any of the off-gridders on this forum, to start with.

So where are they getting their power from?
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 8th 2020
Posted By: JontiSo where are they getting their power from?

You'll have to ask them, but from memory a mixture of solar, wind & hydro, plus a variety of battery stores. Often also including wood-burners.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 10th 2020 edited
Solar powered by external source sun, wind external source is wind, hydro is water......

Of course by my definition they are eligible as self sufficient but not by yours

Posted By: djh
Self sufficient is easy - No external power sources.
- CommentAuthorbhommels
- CommentTimeJul 10th 2020
Posted By: JontiSolar powered by external source sun, wind external source is wind, hydro is water......

Of course by my definition they are eligible as self sufficient but not by yours

Yeah we're all powered by the Big Bang, and will eventually lose out to entropy.
- CommentAuthordjh
- CommentTimeJul 10th 2020
Posted By: JontiSolar powered by external source sun, wind external source is wind, hydro is water......

Of course by my definition they are eligible as self sufficient but not by yours

Posted By: djh
Self sufficient is easy - No external power sources.

">

Oops, you're quite right. I thought I had written external power connections, but I didn't. And I expect there's holes in that statement too.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeJul 10th 2020
Posted By: djh
Posted By: JontiSolar powered by external source sun, wind external source is wind, hydro is water......

Of course by my definition they are eligible as self sufficient but not by yours

Posted By: djh
Self sufficient is easy - No external power sources.

http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/wink.gif" alt="" title="" >">

Oops, you're quite right. I thought I had written external power connections, but I didn't. And I expect there's holes in that statement too.

Touché

and there you have the problem when rather than offering something in regard to the subject discussed you simply choose to rubbish an opinion. It is possible to pick holes in any point as you decided to.

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