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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    Government is consulting on adding this to Building Regs in England. All new build homes and conversions that have a parking space must have at least one EV charging point, minimum 7kW. Ditto all new flats that have a shared carpark bigger than 10spaces, and new non-residential buildings.

    Seems sensible to me, anyone see different ly?

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-car-chargepoints-to-be-installed-in-all-future-homes-in-world-first

    There is a separate consultation that all new charging points must be 'smart' so the demand can be shifted to times when the grid can cope, possibly integrated with 'smart' meters.
  2.  
    Policy position: Residential Buildings
    The government proposes every new residential building with an associated car
    parking space to have a chargepoint. We propose this requirement applies to
    buildings undergoing a material change of use to create a dwelling.

    The government proposes requiring every residential building undergoing major renovation with more than 10 car parking spaces to have one chargepoint and cable routes for electric vehicle chargepoints in every car parking space.

    Policy position: New Non-Residential Buildings
    The government proposes every new non-residential building and every nonresidential building undergoing a major renovation with more than ten car parking spaces to have one chargepoint and cable routes for an electric vehicle
    chargepoint for one in five spaces.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Is the one in five spaces enough for non-residential buildings? I guess anyone with an EV will be charging at home, average commute is well within range of even basic cars so few should need to charge at workplace.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2019
     
    For residential buildings, the current proposal is that there should be a minimum of "one chargepoint per dwelling rather than per parking space. This means that for dwellings with more than one associated parking space, there will only be a requirement for one chargepoint to be installed."

    If all cars are to go electric, it seems reasonable to me to increase that requirement to one chargepoint per parking space.

    For existing non-residential buildings, and outside the Building Regs, they're proposing requiring the retrofitting of one chargepoint in the car park of all buildings with more than 20 car parking spaces. That seems inadequate to me - that could mean just 1 chargepoint in a car park with 2,000 spaces. Increasing the requirement, and making available grants or interest-free loans to fund it (instead of expecting owners to do so), would be preferable.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2019
     
    7kW sounds rather high to me, that is close to a fast charger.

    I have yet to see anything smart except smart plugs,
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2019
     
    Posted By: Mike1For existing non-residential buildings, and outside the Building Regs, they're proposing requiring the retrofitting of one chargepoint in the car park of all buildings with more than 20 car parking spaces. That seems inadequate to me - that could mean just 1 chargepoint in a car park with 2,000 spaces. Increasing the requirement, and making available grants or interest-free loans to fund it (instead of expecting owners to do so), would be preferable.

    I agree about the inadequacy. It seems one charger per 20 spaces or something would be more reasonable.

    I don't see why taxpayers should have to fund it. It's part of the car park. We don't expect taxpayers to fund shops' car parks or offices or factories do we? Nor the lighting, security, staff etc so why the chargers?

    Posted By: tony7kW sounds rather high to me, that is close to a fast charger.

    7 kW is standard for home chargers, AFAIK. Mine certainly is.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2019
     
    Mine is 16A more like 4kW
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: djhI don't see why taxpayers should have to fund it. It's part of the car park. We don't expect taxpayers to fund shops' car parks or offices or factories do we? Nor the lighting, security, staff etc so why the chargers?


    I think consideration needs to be given to the organisation concerned. Certainly some businesses could easily fund it, and the NHS can always find the cash by charging visitors more to use their car parks, but that wouldn't necessarily apply to every organisation with a car park - the local pub, smaller local shops, village halls, Scout huts and the like - particularly if, as I suggest, the number of chargepoints should be increased.

    But maybe you're right, rather than being funded by general taxation, it could be funded by a small extra extra levy on vehicle fuel.

    Maybe the chargepoint requirement without the availability of grants would also encourage a reduction in parking spaces to keep below the limits, boosting the number of people walking or using public transport.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    Posted By: Mike1the local pub, smaller local shops, village halls, Scout huts and the like

    I don't think many of those have car parks with even twenty spaces, let alone forty which would be the logical level to require another chargepoint. In any case, I imagine there might be companies prepared to install chargepoints for little money in return for a [large] share of the income.
  3.  
    Tesla home charging stations in Canada give up to 19.2kW, but current vehicles only support up to 11.5kW

    See https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/home-charging-installation

    Paul in Montreal
  4.  
    Government funding is currently available to install charging points anywhere that is a workplace, or is a home, in separate schemes.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/government-grants-for-low-emission-vehicles

    Local authorities can also get funding to install them on the street, I haven't checked if that includes public carparks.

    So the only places they are not funded is at village halls and Scout huts. (Actually it looks like the workplace scheme might also be available there.)
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2019
     
    Posted By: Paul in MontrealTesla home charging stations in Canada give up to 19.2kW

    That would be close to the total home supply power in many UK houses (80 A)!
  5.  
    >If all cars are to go electric, it seems reasonable to me to increase that requirement to one chargepoint per >parking space.

    >For existing non-residential buildings, and outside the Building Regs, they're proposing requiring the retrofitting of >one chargepoint in the car park of all buildings with more than 20 car parking spaces

    There *is* a fairly significant cost to this - it potentially means upgrading a lot of the back end supplies as well as simply adding a cable to a charge point. Average commute distance is under 10 miles. Range of electrc cars is over 100 miles even for the poor performers so most are only going to need charging once a week, not daily. (and all that is quite apart from the fact that a 10 mile commute is easily cycled by most people and by nearly everyone if you add an electric bike to the mix). If the purpose of the car charging points at business premises is for business vehicles (since personal are charged at home) 1 per location sounds a lot more reasonable.

    Needs to be said once again, the solution to climate emergency and emissions is fewer cars, not electric cars.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019 edited
     
    Posted By: Simon StillFor existing non-residential buildings, and outside the Building Regs, they're proposing requiring the retrofitting of one chargepoint in the car park of all buildings with more than 20 car parking spaces

    There *is* a fairly significant cost to this - it potentially means upgrading a lot of the back end supplies as well as simply adding a cable to a charge point.

    Indeed; the Government impact assessment suggests that in some circumstances building may need to change from PME earthing too, and that installations are likely to cost between £1,640 to £8,210 for a single point, in addition to procurement & other associated management costs. Plus, in some cases, the cost of upgrading the national grid.

    Posted By: Simon StillIf the purpose of the car charging points at business premises is for business vehicles (since personal are charged at home) 1 per location sounds a lot more reasonable.
    The proposal applies to all non-residential car parks, not just business premises.

    Posted By: Simon StillNeeds to be said once again, the solution to climate emergency and emissions is fewer cars, not electric cars.
    I'd suggest that both fewer and electric applies.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    I'd like to see it mandatory to put solar PV on the roof of all new large distribution warehouses, or perhaps those over a certain size on greenfield sites. It seems crazy not to make double use of the land.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    I agree with Mike1 fewer cars and (more) electric cars

    Soon the personal transport revolution will hit and we won’t own cars just buy journeys and need a lot less of them
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    Soon the personal transport revolution will hit and we won’t own cars just buy journeys and need a lot less of them


    Yes soon we will fly everywhere in Drone Taxi :-)
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    Posted By: tonywe won’t own cars just buy journeys

    I can't see this catching on in a big way for a long time, myself. It's just too convenient to have all your own 'stuff' in a car. Plus until cars really are self-driving in all circumstances, it will only make sense in cities. There'll need to be big changes in taxation to make it more cost effective to buy a single journey than use an already-owned vehicle.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    I think cost will push it forwards, tax included, self driving is closer than we think it is.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2019
     
    Just as soon as it becomes early-adopter-feasible, like electric cars, with subsidy it will take off within a 2yr period, for better or worse.
  6.  
    Posted By: djhThat would be close to the total home supply power in many UK houses (80 A)!


    Minimum entry for houses here is now 200A (@240V). A lot of people here have some kind of electric heating so I'm sure that's part of the reason. Many people are installing 400A entries in new builds too (incremental cost is not huge really - just another breaker box and a bigger master fuse!).

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2019
     
    I trust they're building new renewable generation to go with each new 100 kW house they build :devil:
  7.  
    Posted By: djhI trust they're building new renewable generation to go with each new 100 kW house they build:devil:" alt=":devil:" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/devil.gif" >


    Quebec has 45GW of installed hydro and wind stations - production was 212TWh in 2017 ... and there's 3,858,943 households ... so that's around 56kWh per household ... which is obviously a lot more than people use at home (a good chunk is for making aluminium and export to the US). It will be interesting to see how the roll out of electric vehicles increases demand from the residential sector.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2019
     
    Posted By: Paul in MontrealQuebec has 45GW of installed hydro and wind stations - production was 212TWh in 2017 ... and there's 3,858,943 households ... so that's around 56kWh per household ... which is obviously a lot more than people use at home

    Eh, most people use an awful lot more than 56 kWh in a year?
  8.  
    Posted By: djhEh, most people use an awful lot more than 56 kWh in a year?


    Ah yes, that was 56k kWh ... so 56,000 kWh - production was 53% of actual capacity over the year. I was using around 15,000 kWh a year over the past few years for the GSHP (and everything else).

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2019
     
    Ah, that makes more sense of the kWh numbers, thanks. It sounds like Quebec is in a good place. But 45 GW is only 12 kW per household, unless I've slipped another factor of 1000. That's a lot less than 100 kW. Using a slightly optimistic coincidence factor of 35% would imply a peak demand from each house of just under 35 kW, so there'll need to be a huge improvement in diversity management to enable them to draw even half of the capability that's been installed.

    Given current management capabilities, if the individual peak draw is 100 kW they would need to be able to supply 135 GW to meet the winter peak.
    • CommentAuthorKev.k
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2019
     
    Will they never learn?

    If people have to buy them the price will triple.
  9.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: tony</cite>I think cost will push it forwards, tax included, self driving is closer than we think it is.</blockquote>

    The people I know who are actually close to the technology (at Transport Research Lab) and the stuff I've read that isn't hyped by investors or Elon Musk himself, suggests self driving is lot further away than people have been led to believe. The tech just isn't anywhere close to dealing with the complex interactions and 'negotiations' with humans (whether pedestrians or other drivers) that are needed.

    Yes, increasing degrees of automation in controlled environments where there are relatively few junctions and only motor vehciles (ie motorways). That's pretty easy.
    Yes, potentially self driving "public transport" on controlled routes with defined stops - bus/tram type things. But we're a long way from jump in your car in Chelmsford and sit back until the car delivers you to Croydon
  10.  
    Posted By: djhGiven current management capabilities, if the individual peak draw is 100 kW they would need to be able to supply 135 GW to meet the winter peak.


    Based on the searches I did, the highest power ever delivered on the coldest day in winter was around 38GW - uncomfortably close to the installed capacity (and they have to buy in power from other regions at that point due to the way the grid works I think). Peak load for me was around 13kW on the coldest (-30C) days - but would be higher for people on straight resistance heating. A lot of those "households" are not in single dwellings, though, so that reduces the load significantly.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2019
     
    Posted By: Paul in MontrealPeak load for me was around 13kW on the coldest (-30C) days - but would be higher for people on straight resistance heating.

    Right, but if we said straight resistance heating was three times yours, say 40 kW, that's still less than half of the capacity you say people are installing. Why install such huge power capacity unless there's an intention to use it? I'm somewhat surprised it isn't illegal to use straight resistance heating in your climate, let alone uneconomic?
  11.  
    Posted By: djhRight, but if we said straight resistance heating was three times yours, say 40 kW, that's still less than half of the capacity you say people are installing. Why install such huge power capacity unless there's an intention to use it? I'm somewhat surprised it isn't illegal to use straight resistance heating in your climate, let alone uneconomic?


    Base generation cost is so low here that it doesn't really matter - it's 0.2c per kWh for the Churchill Falls station and I think the overall base generation cost is around 1c/kWh. Entry size is determined by peak load demands - so if you have 15kW of resistance heat, tumble drier, stove etc. and a small steel smelter in the basement you can peak at over 50kW (though why people are installing 400A entries I'm not really sure). And now with car charging stations that can deliver 19kW ... (though the cars can't take that much power ... yet) ... it soon adds up.

    As for resistance heat being uneconomic, it is only in the sense that it limits the amount of power available for export (though this is limited by transmission line capacity, which is why they're installing 450kV DC lines directly to the US as well as 735kV AC ( the first 735kV one just celebrated 50 years of operation a couple of years ago). Hydroelectricity is being seen as "the new oil" here and so they're trying to develop export markets, but it's not easy putting in new transmission lines across wilderness areas as people complain etc.

    Paul in Montreal.
   
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