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    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2020 edited
     
    What ho one and all,

    I live on a private road in leafy Surrey and am on the road association committee. The road was constructed around 50 - 60 years ago and is pebble / concrete mix with rebar, basically over London clay. It is pretty solid but is cracking and was never designed for today's heavy trucks that deliver building material.

    Every X meters, there are drainage gratings on each side, with one side connected to the other side, which then drains into a pipe under the verge to remove surface water.

    It is more of less known that some the these cross road pipes have probably collapsed and consequently, prevent (reduce?) drainage; the result being that some residents are up in arms about large puddles, etc.

    Given that access to the cross-road pipe is limited by the grating size and depth of the sump, is there some magic procedure to clear and or re-line them without digging up the road?

    I know that sewers can be re-bored and lined in-situ but they generally have spacious inspection chamber to gain access.

    Thanks and toodle pip

    Rex
  1.  
    Posted By: RexIt is pretty solid but is cracking and was never designed for today's heavy trucks that deliver building material.

    Whilst not addressing the core question of the thread - have you thought of putting a weight limit on the road to stop further damage? Given it is a private road I would have thought that a weight restriction is within your power.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2020
     
    Posted By: RexIt is more of less known that some the these cross road pipes have probably collapsed and consequently, prevent (reduce?) drainage; the result being that some residents are up in arms about large puddles, etc.

    Given that access to the cross-road pipe is limited by the grating size and depth of the sump, is there some magic procedure to clear and or re-line them without digging up the road?

    I'd think it would be fairly easy to establish exactly what has happened with remote cameras. Start with a domestic endoscope camera perhaps and then maybe contract somebody with a drain camera to inspect.

    Depending on what you find it might be easier to ignore the existing drains and instead drill a new path with a mole, or even excavate the road and place a new one.

    PS. I'd have thought a reinforced concrete road should easily handle slow speed occasional heavy traffic.
  2.  
    I know how hard it is to get everyone agreed to maintain a shared private road! We had a huge bust up with a previous neighbour, who was determined not to pay for any maintenance until the road became impassible. Neighbour disputes are a real pain.

    So the best solution might not be the 'right' one, but the lowest common denominator that everyone will pay into, even if that's only a stopgap for now.

    Puddles quickly become potholes, which do for your suspension bushes.

    It is actually very quick to dig a trench across the road, chuck in a pipe and fill it up again, get a local digger driver to quote for it rather than a roads contractor.

    Tunnelling is going to be more expensive and probably just as disruptive.

    Can you put a new drainpipe (or ditch) down both sides of the road, avoiding lots of pipes under it, apart from one at the bottom?

    What's beside the road? Is it a field you could put soakaways in?
  3.  
    I think the first step would be to get a quick survey of the verge drain - is that intact? That'll give a handle on what to do next.

    Assuming its OK - it should be easy to work out which cross pipes are knackered - the ones with the puddles.
    However, given it is rebar reiniforced concrete, thats where the real problems start!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2020
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenIt is actually very quick to dig a trench across the road

    Remember its reinforced concrete, not a conventional road surface.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2020
     
    If it's mostly sound but cracked why assume the drains have collapsed? Perhaps just blocked?
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2020 edited
     
    Gentlemen,

    Thanks for the comments. To address a few of them.

    Tried an endoscope attached to my phone. Basic issue is, there is sufficient slit settled in the bottom of the cross-road pipe and with the assistance of gravity, the lens part of the endoscope lies in that silt. Can see diddly squat. Tried to jet was a bit but the lens still sits at the bottom of the pipe and I don't have sufficient control of the lens to point it upward. And the further along the pipe the endoscope goes, the bigger the see-zilch issue gets.

    This is a strange private road. Either side of the road, each house has a 3m grass verge or hedge. However, what slightly complicates the issue is that most private roads, the residents do not own the road. On this road, each resident owns their property width of the road, up to the centre. However, most are happy to pay the annual subscription and give the TLC of the road to the Association. However, there are a few who do not pay but they still get the work done if necessary.

    As for a weight restriction. Good idea in principle but when there is a building project, the average muck-away / crane / large skip / screed / Travis Perkins brick / cement delivery does not come on 7.5 ton trucks. I live near the end and we had some heavy vehicles during construction. And there will be two big projects starting soon at the very end of the road.

    So based upon your comments, it is either a high pressure jet wash and if totally blocked, dig up what appears to be a structurally sound strip of concrete. Whilst I agree, I doubt if there are sufficient funds in the kitty and certainly, there will be big time reluctance to contribute more.

    The bottom line is that it really is not a big problem but residents with a puddle outside their hose make it one! 24 hours after the rain stops, any puddles have slowly drained away. And unlike many other around the country, no-one has a flooded house.

    Could also add that the council will not adbot the road; why would they? They receive close to the highest rate of tax for every property and only have to collect rubbish. No lighting, no road maintenance; it's a win for them
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2020
     
    Does the drain connect to a public sewer? If owned by multiple properties, are shared drains not the water company's problem?
  4.  
    Rex - re the 'endoscope see-zilch issue' could you lift the lens up by fixing a wedge under the lens to keep it above the mire?

    If a weight restriction was place on the road this would hamper building projects as you say but only to put up the cost of those doing the project and the owners have a right to protect their property (the road) Alternatively get the drains flushed through to be in working order and then notify those undertaking the new projects that they will be charged for any damage done as a result of their works. Prior notification makes it easier to get damages after.

    As an unrelated thought - is the road closed for one day a year to prevent it being claimed as a right of way?
  5.  
    Would a weight limit restrict access for fire engines? Or bin lorries.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2020
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungarynotify those undertaking the new projects that they will be charged for any damage done as a result of their works

    I agree with the principle of this idea, but I think the difficulty lies in the practical implementation. Namely the difficulty and cost of establishing exactly what damage was caused by what traffic and what needs to be done as a result. Solicitors and surveyors get rich; the road remains problematic. What's needed is some kind of subscription system, with 'normal' residents paying annually and 'building' residents paying a larger lump sum. The solution will depend on the detail of the shared ownership and rights of use.
  6.  
    Our title deeds required each neighbour to pay for road maintenance "according to their use", so heavy users should pay more. But IME (see above) the legal words are pretty much un-enforceable.

    If most of the neighbours (including us) threaten one neighbour (them) with legal action to recover road repair costs, the threatened party has 1001 very antisocial ways to get their own back. The police ended up being called a few times to rein them in, and one other family were so harassed they decided to move out.

    My conclusion is that the road condition is never worth the serious aggro of starting a neighbour dispute, and the legal provisions cannot be enforced without likelihood of causing one.

    So the road has to be maintained by neighbourly consensus, which might mean doing little or nothing, if that is the only option that some neighbours will consent to.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2020
     
    Each house pays the same subscription, irrespective of where they live on the road. So those at the beginning, really don't get any benefit.

    However, a few years ago, the constitution was altered to include a one-off payment for work done to any house, to sort of cover potential road repair. There are three levels with the max being a demolish and rebuild.

    We are going to have the cross-road pipe flushed but I think there will be a few location where either collapse or years of settling mud and leaves will have fully blocked the pipe.

    All the cross-road pipes lead to a (probably) larger diameter pipe under the grass verge that does lead drain to the main public road, but I very much doubt that the council would be interested. It is difficult enough to get the council to come a few times a year just to sweep the kerb, but they do.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2020 edited
     
    Rex said: "All the cross-road pipes lead to a (probably) larger diameter pipe under the grass verge that does lead drain to the main public road, but I very much doubt that the council would be interested. It is difficult enough to get the council to come a few times a year just to sweep the kerb, but they do."

    It's not the council, it's the water company. And it changed relatively recently - 2011 - to be their responsibility. So call them and ask them to sort it. See e.g. https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20419 https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/water/water-supply/sewerage/who-is-responsible-for-repairing-drains-and-sewers/

    edit: It's what you pay sewerage charges for!
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2020
     
    The citizens advice link says that private/unadopted drains remain the householer(s) responsibility. As the road is unadopted theres a fair chance the drains are too so be careful calling out the water company as you may get a nasty surprise by way of a callout charge!
    • CommentAuthorgoodevans
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2020
     
    I'm not sure that is fully correct Philedge. Yes, - private and unadopted drains remain the householer(s) responsibility However shared drains (i.e. sewers) that were around in 2011 would have been adoped by the water undertaker - I think it makes no difference whether the road is private or not. (Anything built after then, and not adopted by the water undertaker remains private.)

    picture examples in this link

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=2ahUKEwjG_NOw1pPoAhVxlFwKHdPkA3kQFjACegQICxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.water.org.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F03%2FPrivate-Sewer-Transfer-Water-UK-Template.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3N8DYLB3JStHkPrIHMnQAW
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2020
     
    Wot goodevans said, plus the CAB page says that the way to resolve whether it is the water company's responsibility is to ask the water company, which is exactly what I suggested.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2020
     
    Posted By: djh So call them and ask them to sort it


    Asking them to sort it is a touch different to asking whos responsible.

    Just be cautious about asking anyone to sort things out until you know whos responsible for costs. In this case Rex may find himself personally responsible for costs if its him that instructs repairs.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2020
     
    Posted By: goodevansI'm not sure that is fully correct Philedge.


    Just quoting the CAB advice that was linked to and urging caution until responsibilitiies are known.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: RexThis is a strange private road. Either side of the road, each house has a 3m grass verge or hedge. However, what slightly complicates the issue is that most private roads, the residents do not own the road. On this road, each resident owns their property width of the road, up to the centre.

    That doesn't sound strange, it sounds normal. As you have a management association, I guess that the deeds also require new owners to enter into a covenant with it, and that the association has the ability to levy charges, so you have some advantages, even if the politics of enforcement may be difficult.

    Posted By: RexCould also add that the council will not adopt the road; why would they?

    They are unlikely to adopt it, or do anything in the case of a few puddles, but FWIW they do have powers under the Highways Act 1980 (section 205) to make improvements to private roads and charge those fronting the road 'where a private street is not, to the satisfaction of the street works authority, sewered, levelled, paved, metalled, flagged, channelled, made good and lighted'.
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