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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2020
     
    Considering a new door and frame made to measure it comes with a 6 point locking system. I am told it works with a single key which throws the bolts and locks the door . All the multipoint locking systems I have come across requires throwing the bolts by lifting a handle which I cannot have as the door will opens into a reveal.
    . Trying to get details of this system from the makers is like getting blood out of a stone. Can't find multipoint on Kaba website but plenty of locks. I asked if it was powered in any way and was told it was not so I am perplexed as to how a single key can throw a multipoint lock. Anyone got any leads.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2020
     
    Two of the doors on my sunroom have multipoint locks. The single Garrison high security lock barrels below the handles throw seven round steel dowels into the frame. They are close grouped in sets, two top, two bottom, and three centre. There is also a second lock at eye level, keyed alike, which independently throws three more dowels into the frame. The whole system is all located on the door edge on one long steel fitting, and does not throw bolts into the door head and cill as some multipoint systems do. Without removing the locks I can't tell the manufacturer, I try and sift through the paperwork to find out who, but it was a while ago I bought it.
  1.  
    I have a mulitpoint lock on a flat door which is operated by a key. It throws a standard mortice tongue and bars top, bottom and to the hinge side that are mounted on the back of the door. The door has a secondary door so not too unsightly but I could imagine that if the bars were built into the door it would work. The key takes 2 turns to fully lock the door. There is much less resistance to turning the lock than you find with the standard 5 point handle operated locks common today.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2020
     
    Posted By: revorConsidering a new door and frame made to measure it comes with a 6 point locking system. I am told it works with a single key which throws the bolts and locks the door . All the multipoint locking systems I have come across requires throwing the bolts by lifting a handle which I cannot have as the door will opens into a reveal.

    I don't understand what you mean about not being able to lift the handle because the door opens into a reveal?

    Trying to get details of this system from the makers is like getting blood out of a stone. Can't find multipoint on Kaba website but plenty of locks. I asked if it was powered in any way and was told it was not so I am perplexed as to how a single key can throw a multipoint lock. Anyone got any leads.

    I assume that the maker is Dormakaba, since your thread title mentions 'Kaba'? If so then I too can't find details by browsing on their website but a google search for Kaba multipoint locking system throws up https://www.dormakaba.com/ch-en/products-solutions/products/door-hardware/locks/m-svp-5000-319506 which suggests that model you are considering may well be the M-SVP 5000. In that case the answer to your question appears to be that the bolts are thrown by magnets as soon as the door is closed. Presumably the magnets are installed in the back of the pockets for the latches. They are withdrawn by pushing the handle down.

    There's a detailed brochure at
    https://www.dormakaba.com/resource/blob/136158/5343086779ee879bbfd223ef7d539b06/tb-05460851532-svp-msvp-20190509-en-view-pdf-data.pdf
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2020
     
    This is same as my system, produced by ERA. The locking mechanism operates by key only, not by reversing the handle.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Era-Garrison-Multipoint-Security-Bolts/dp/B00HZ4C958
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2020
     
    Thanks for the links now understand how it works. Will now ask specific question as to the exact model of locking system use and check that out. It is an expensive door so don't want any surprises I would have to travel several hundred miles to view an example.
    Do not want a handle as it will foul on the reveal wall and damage the lime plaster will have a latch pull instead and a narrow door stop to protect that from damaging the wall.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2020
     
    To close loop on this the multipointlock is by Fuhr and the euro cylinder lock by Kaba
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2020
     
    I would be careful to insist on operating an existing installed lock of the same type prior to purchase. There was a piece in the ST last week about a lady who had a key-operated lock and found it too difficult to operate. Also check what problems might occur as the new door settles in and as it ages. Even slight warping might make the door more difficult to operate. If it's airtight, then the locks normally pull the door tightly against the seals - that's one reason why the leverage of a lever is used.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2020
     
    I had a look at FUHR multipoint key operated locks for timber main entrance doors and the diagram shows the door construction to be the typical German door, whereby both frame and door are rebated. Nothing wrong with that construction, personally I like it, and even double rebates, if the door is thick enough, but make sure that's what you want.
    Pulling the door tight against the frame is easily overcome with a couple of manual shoot bolts. Bespoke timber door with precision multipoint locks should be made from laminated timber to eliminate movement. If the above door construction is what is proposed then make sure good seals are used,- there are many different kinds for timber doors.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2020
     
    Over the years have made several doors myself but this one I am buying as with everything else going on cannot find time and also cannot go out and about to select the timber. The one I am having made is from laminated clear grade redwood timber (douglas fir is the best softwood for exterior used timber and which I would have chosen if making myself). I am expecting it will be well made it certainly is expensive.
    djh
    I have been around the locking mechanism time and time again with the manufacturer checking the operation etc as I am doubtful of it locking with a key on its own without a handle as I have on other doors. However I am assured that their lock will work. If I had not specified a door with no handle on the inside I think I would have ended up with a cheaper locking system. The nearest door to view would be a trip of several hundred miles but have seen the doors at an NEC exhibition a few years ago and was impressed with the quality but I did not try out the locking mechanism
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2020
     
    My two doors which I described above are outward opening 53 mm thick laminated oak in laminated oak frames. They are hung on 4 x SS projection hinges because I wanted them able to fold right back 180 degrees. They only have handles on the inside so not dissimilar to yours in concept, except they only have exposed lock barrels on the inside too. The Key operated multipoint locks work fine, the handle simply works a latch as normal. The Garrison keys are quite similar to many of the flat KABA types and are inserted horizontally.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2020
     
    I only just realised that going through the spec line by line that there is no internal key only a thumb turn. I thought it would be keyed as standard as anyone getting in via other means of forced entry could just let themselves out through the front door. I would have thought that given the rest of the system is so secure that this is a weak point and how it is claimed to be sold secure defeats me given this weakness. I had thought of having an external opening door on parliament hinges it would have saved the issue with the handle. As it opened up onto a veranda area I was concerned it could be opened when a person was walking past and get struck by it, there is glazing in it but it is high up.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2020
     
    I think your concerns are well placed. I personally wouldn't want thumb turns on an external door.
    However looking at FUHR's 855GL it appears to have a standard euro profile lock opening on the mechanism, so theoretically you could specify any lock barrel not only KABA, and also dispense with the interior thumb turn.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2020
     
    Posted By: owlmanPulling the door tight against the frame is easily overcome with a couple of manual shoot bolts.

    Depends whether it's an escape door. You don't want to be dealing with bolts and a lock when fleeing a fire. That's the argument usually used for recommending or requiring a thumb-turn only - no key at all to get in the way.
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