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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2021
     
    Will,

    It is very quiet - neighbours wont complain. The settings have a quiet mode which I have not tried yet. However when it is at full power the fan may go faster, I have yet to observe it.

    I had to increase my main fuse from 60 amp to 100 amp, cost £63. There is a special distribution box solely for the ASHP. In the daylight, I will check the cabling and tell you how it is routed.

    No problems with RCD tripping, I think everything is soft start.

    I have been used to an on/off GSHP that I installed in France. It had a greater heat output than the inertia cylinder and total underfloor circuit could absorb. It would run for about 22 min then turn off on a max temperature setting.

    The Daikin operates totally differently. I am still learning, but it seems to have quite a delay before it turns on. Then the supply temperature slowly rises. The return temperature is only 0.5 to 1.0 degree different. As time slowly passes the supply and return temperatures rise. Eventually it stops, but I need to do more study to understand it better.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    Will,

    Just looked at the wiring. The cables come from the new distribution box that has a kWh meter (useful, but hard to read as it is mounted too high). There are individual cables to the HW cylinder in the loft, the hydro box and the external unit.

    Now it is cooler I have put one rad on 35 degrees. After a long delay it started and is slowly heating up. There is a slight whining noise coming from the hydro box and it is cycling in frequency, up and down. It may be that the pump is having trouble with such a light load. The external fan unit is going really slowly, I can hardly hear it.
  1.  
    Thanks Topher that's helpful, I'm thinking about possible cable routing.

    Our previous Daikin had a variable speed CH pump in the indoor unit. It was set up to monitor the leaving and returning temperature of the CH water, and so deduce the heat load being consumed by the house. Then it would adjust the speed of the pump to optimise the circulation flow of the CH to match the load, so the frequency of the pump was always adjusting.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    Will,

    You mentioned that your Daikin variable speed pump was constantly adjusting.

    Was the sound obtrusive? Did it cycle up and down, about one cycle per second? Could you hear it in the house?
  2.  
    Topher, I'd say it adjusted speed about every 5 seconds.

    It was an earlier model than yours, the indoor unit included an extra refrigerant compressor to boost the temperature to 80⁰C when required. The compressor was noisier than the circ pump but we got used to it. It was in our utility room in our previous house, which wasn't great for noise, but the heat that leaked from thinly insulated plumbing fixtures was handy for drying clothes.

    As an experiment, try turning all of the radiators on, and see if the circ pump settles down to a steadier speed?
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    Will, When the weather gets cooler more than one rad will come on, then I will be able judge the noise.

    With expensive, all new kit, I was expecting it to be at least as quiet as the old on/off pump
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    I have just learned about the Blygold treatment that my ASHP received. You may be interested.

    Blygold is a Finish company but the work is done in the UK. The heat exchanger is dismantled and cleaned to remove any oil and grease from manufacturing. It is then coated with the product which protects against corrosion from the salty air here on the south coast. I am about 600 meters from the sea. In winter, salt spray is blown on to everything outside. The fan draws the salty air over the heat exchanger.

    It then gets reassembled and sent back to Daikin who re-test it.

    The amazing thing is that the thermal efficiency is actually improved by the coating. I am going to try and find out by how much.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    "The water has a taste of flux, I hope it is not bad for us, and expect it will go away with time."

    It will in time but surprised they used soldered joints they are neater than compression but what is becoming more common place is press-fit fittings. These are very much like a solder joint but have an o ring in the fitting and are secured to the pipe with a special compression tool. Many companies will not allow flame or hot work to be undertaken so the system comes into it own in these circumstance.
    When we were doing our conversion we had to confirm to our insurers that we would not undertake any hot work. The way I got around this was to do the solder fitting in the workshop in sections and connect up with compression fittings. The bonus was that I could flush out the flux with a bottle brush and detergent before assembly so the system was clean.
    I once worked in a factory and had contractors do work in the roof space using blow torches. Even though we had flame permit procedures and an employee standing by with a fire extinguisher we still had a fire late in the evening when everyone had gone home. We were lucky we did not lose the building an ember somewhere must have started it. I was quite happy to conform to my insurers request.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    revor,

    Thanks for confirming that the flux tase will go away. I note than after a few days it has reduced.

    I know what you mean about the press fittings, may be it is a cost impact. I know I am comparing with my own poor plumbing efforts, but they must have made 40 to 50 soldered joints - not one leak. To be fair it was with all new and clean components.
  3.  
    Posted By: revorbut what is becoming more common place is press-fit fittings. These are very much like a solder joint but have an o ring in the fitting and are secured to the pipe with a special compression tool.

    This sounds like what they use over here for gas piping. Solder fittings for gas have been banned here for some time as it is reckoned that in a fire the heat will melt the solder and the gas pressure will push the pipes apart releasing gas to add to the fun.

    They are more expensive than end feed fittings but quicker to fit especially on larger bore pipes.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2021
     
    BTW, I just got my insurance certificate. If for any reason my installer can not fix a defect in the system the insurance covers someone else to do it for a period of 2 years.

    I assume this is a Gov requirement for consumer protection.

    It is interesting for me to compare to the system in France. The French Government require every trades person to have this insurance but it has a duration of ten years. When you sell the house you must send all details to the buyer. The insurance continues for the new owner.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2021
     
    Posted By: topherBTW, I just got my insurance certificate. If for any reason my installer can not fix a defect in the system the insurance covers someone else to do it for a period of 2 years.

    I assume this is a Gov requirement for consumer protection.


    Pretty sure that will be backed by Daikin or their requirement for approved installers to carry that insurance.... gives a good customer experience.

    Unless theres a credit card used to pay for some or all of it where the CC company is jointly liable , only the supplier is responsible for faults. Although on a diminishing scale, that responsibility lasts to some degree for up to 7(?) years:bigsmile:
  4.  
    https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/service-end-user/warranty.html

    Daikin warranty is 3 years AIUI

    Edit: and is conditional on having it serviced

    Further edit: when our previous Daikin broke down, the firm we called out were very confident that Daikin would pay for them to fix it, if still under warranty. The original installer had stopped trading. Sadly for us all, it was out of warranty by then.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenhttps://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/service-end-user/warranty.html

    Daikin warranty is 3 years AIUI

    Apparently so, as long as you jump through the requisite hoops, otherwise less. And maybe 7 years if you hand over some dosh.

    But as philedge says, the primary liability in the UK is contractual, with the organisation that you bought the system from.

    The insurance certificate sounds like a cover-my-ars* provision in case of installers defaulting/going out of business and adds to the legal protections rather than replacing them. Consumer Rights Act 2015 is the basis. See e.g.

    https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/goods/the-sale-and-supply-of-goods
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2021
     
    I have been told that my installer has become so well approved by Daikin that the warranty (subject to Daikin servicing) will be 5 years, not 3. I am seeking to have this confirmed.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 11th 2021
     
    Posted By: topherI have been told that my installer has become so well approved by Daikin that the warranty (subject to Daikin servicing) will be 5 years, not 3. I am seeking to have this confirmed.

    Sounds good. Also seek to confirm the cost of 'Daikin servicing' :)
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2021 edited
     
    You might be interested in what happened yesterday - I had to install a BDR91T Honeywell heat pump relay as the old BDR91 that I had, was only designed for a gas boiler. Both have a button which can be pressed, a green light comes on and it calls for heat. With a gas boiler it comes on immediately. A heat pump is much slower. Honeywell were very efficient and downloaded new control unit firmware in 1 hour from requested.

    For another reason I had completely removed power and put it back on. When I pressed the button the green light came on and eventually something started to happen. Firstly the heat pump came on in the de-ice mode - the heat exchanger got warm. I have never seen this before. I assume it is a standard start up procedure. After a bit the fan/coil unit came on and the water temperature started to rise. I opened 3 rads to give load and the temperature slowly rose.

    Eventually, I closed the rads and the unit shut down. Everything was fine.

    As a nerd, I am reading the kWh meter every day - I expect I will get bored with it eventually. At present it runs every night from 00.30 am to 4.30 am (cost 5p per kWh) to give me 250 litres of domestic hot at 50 degrees. The following is the daily consumption.

    5/9/2021 reading 14.55 kWh
    7/9/2021 reading 19.79 kWh. Delta 5.24 kWh
    8/9/2021 reading 22.91 kWh. Delta 3.12 kWh. This covers increase in water temp 50 > 55 deg
    9/9/2021 reading 26.27 kWh. Delta 3.36 kWh. This includes the rad test in dining room
    10/9/2021 reading 29.865 kWh Estimated by 2 days / two. Delta 3.60 kWh
    11/9/2021 reading 33.46 kWh Delta 3.60 kWh
    12/9/2021 reading 37.45 kWh Delta 3.99 kWh
    13/9/2021 reading 41.99 kWh Delta 4.54 kWh
    14/9/2021 reading 44.67 kWh Delta 2.67 kWh. Ran the rads for a bit.

    So about 3.3 kWh, or 16.7 pence per day for HW.

    15/9/2021. This is me having a rant. Daikin are a difficult to deal with company. Today I tried to set up annual 'Gold' maintenance (£264 pa). Could not see how to do it on line. Phoned, I had to respond with an email giving N & A, email, phone, model and serial numbers. Now I have to wait for an email response, then I can phone up to make the payment. If you tried to design a more 'customer hostile' system you probably could not do better than Daikin's.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2021 edited
     
    Today (15/9) Just for interest I put 3 rads up to 35 degrees. Heat pump relay came on. Circulating pump started at 16 l/min. After a long time fan/coil unit came on. Ran slowly. Circulating water reached 55 deg (set point) then rose to 57 deg. Pump went up to 26 l/min, then everything shut down. Interesting, I think it is programmed to take the max heat out of the system just before shutdown.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2021
     
    Posted By: topherI think it is programmed to take the max heat out of the system just before shutdown.


    Akin to the pump over-run on a gas boiler.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2021 edited
     
    I just bought 'Gold" annual servicing costs £265. Daikin admin dreadful. I now have a 10 year warranty.

    Daikin's words follow - Guaranteed 10 Year Price Promise! • £264 Inc. VAT per unit, annual up front payment. Reoccurring payment once a year for 10 years (can be cancelled at any time) • One annual service per year • 2 Callouts Free of Charge for Non Daikin Equipment / Warranty Issues • Callout Chargeable at Reduced Rate £120 Inc. Vat If Not Daikin / Warranty Issue • Daikin Spare Parts & Labour included.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2021
     
    I'm completely out of touch with current heating system costs. So £265 sounds expensive for an annual maintenance programme. What's the current annual cost for e.g. a gas heating system?
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2021
     
    Hi djh,

    On my old gas boiler the local plumber who I think is great, said that my Vaillant boiler only needed servicing every 2 years. At a rough guess including gaskets that have to be changed that comes to about £120 per 2 years or say £60 per year.

    I think the Daikin deal is a bit of a rip off cause a quick visit, check of numbers, maybe cleaning the filter would only cost Daikin about £60. Nothing like £265. However it does enable 10 years Daikin parts and labour warranty and two free call outs, so maybe not so bad,

    I used to have a GSHP in France and serviced it myself. Just two strainers, or filters to be cleaned, and perhaps tweaking up the two primary circuit pressures.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2021
     
    Posted By: djhI'm completely out of touch with current heating system costs. So £265 sounds expensive for an annual maintenance programme. What's the current annual cost for e.g. a gas heating system?


    About £80 for a straight forward service more if it includes a breakdown call out plan. £150 or so depending where you live.
  5.  
    It's like buying an extended warranty on a car - you are really just paying for an insurance policy.

    Most of the time, heat pumps will need £60 of labour each year, but some (like mine) will develop a mystery fault which requires £2k-worth of parts to be swapped out, until the problem is fixed.

    The £265 extended warranty would cover this, so is not comparable with just the labour costs of an annual service.

    Given how keen they are to sell them, I suspect the £265 includes a good markup for both the installer and the insurance company. And TBF the labour rate per hour for heat pump technicians is much more expensive than gas plumbers, supply/demand.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2021 edited
     
    Hi WillinAberdeen,

    Yes, I think you are right. It is an insurance policy, and some you win, some you loose. Normally I avoid such deals, but if it conks out in the winter time, having a quick response from Daikin is worth it.

    When I set up the French system, they had a deal for commissioning which gave 3 years on parts and labour - normally 1 year. The commissioning was rubbish, I knew more than the Atlantic bloke, but the high power circulating pump failed, cost > 1k€. I did not have to pay a centime. So fortunately I made the right decision.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    Just registered my Daikin products, I have 10 years parts and labour til 15 September 2031. Paying for annual servicing was not needed to get the warranty, but it was a good peace of mind thing.

    Just realised something. My installer set the Legionnaires' disease protection for Thursday nights. I noticed on Friday that I had consumed more than usual electricity overnight, also that the hot water was much too hot.

    I think I am going to disable the setting. I am an old geezer and have had my domestic hot at 50 degrees for ages, and I am still here. Apparently to kill Legionnaires' you need 60 degrees.
  6.  
    Posted By: topherI think I am going to disable the setting. I am an old geezer and have had my domestic hot at 50 degrees for ages, and I am still here. Apparently to kill Legionnaires' you need 60 degrees.


    I too am an old geezer and at my last house we used an EASHP to heat the DHW and we kept the tank at 45C. We lived there for just over three years without any problems. I searched for a long time to try to find cases of Legionnaires in a domestic setting without any success.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    PeterStarck,

    Good point, at some future date, I will reduce to 45 degrees too. But first I have to solve the poor flow and pressure problem. The 300 litre accumulator tank is in the garage awaiting installation in October.

    Anyone got any hints and tips on accumulators? My mains pressure is 2.4 bar.
    • CommentAuthorMikel
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    @PeterStarck re: cases of legionella in domestic premises,

    FYI, I have a reference to a FOI request, dated 26th Nov 2012:

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/135812/response/335799/attach/3/FOI%20480737%20response.doc?cookie_passthrough=1

    I've copied the relevant part below:

    "The second part of your request was for the following details:

    The number of cases where the infection was specifically determined to have been contracted from domestic hot water supplies in Scotland. (Specific information on the numbers resulting from *domestic* hot water supplies - not hot water supplies in hospitals, factories, hotels and so on.)

    For these cases, please indicate how many of them were confirmed by microbiological testing ie where testing showed that the organism found in the hot water system was indistinguishable from the infecting clinical strain.

    HPS Response

    For community acquired cases in 2009, 2010 and 2011, three have been linked epidemiologically to the case’s domestic water supply. In one case the evidence was highly indicative (same strain identified by culture in the case and the domestic water) and in the other two cases the evidence was indicative (strain cultured from the domestic water; tests from clinical samples indicative of this strain, but samples not taken from the case that were suitable for culture and therefore more complete strain typing was not possible).

    These three cases were in 2009. The environmental investigation for these three cases, carried out by local authority environmental health officers at the request of the NHS board,,found that the most likely source of exposure was a hot water tap within each of the cases homes. The presumed cause of the exposure was the build up of Legionella bacteria in the hot water system, in one case caused by recent plumbing work to the system.

    Cases are usually definitively linked to a particular source on the basis of microbiological, epidemiological and environmental evidence. With regard to the microbiological evidence, the same strain and type of Legionella bacteria are isolated from the patient and from water samples taken from the source. Legionella bacteria prefer warm and slow moving or stagnant water. The latter can occur in recently disturbed water systems – where repairs or replacements have been made. Environmental investigations focus on identifying if there is an increased risk of Legionella growth within a system, and may not result in samples being taken and tested. In short, not all cases of community acquired Legionnaires’ disease are accompanied by testing of water samples taken from the case’s home or suspected source in the community."
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Technical question. If chlorine kills legionella, there can be no problem in a closed, unvented, full mains pressure system like many of us have today.

    Correct?
   
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