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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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General: Cellulose insulation in general or Warmcell in particular

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2020 edited
     
    I was looking to use this to fill in and top up my loft in the odd place .

    Has anyone had bad experiences with it as I have just been told that would not be wise as there are a number
    of problems with it .
    Tia
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2020
     
    What have you been told are the problems with it and why it wouldn't be wise?

    What made you decide on cellulos insulation for your particular job?

    I used cellulose insulation (thermofloc) as suspended floor insulation in our house while we were planning and designing the rebuild. I used it because our old floor joists were at random spacing so it was the easiest method of full filling the joists. I found it good to work with BUT it can get very dusty when you're fluffing up the loose fill packages - you need to wear a mask and suit. I also found that using a hand-held kitchen whisk was the most effective tool for getting it all fluffed up and boyant and know that it held this for at least three years without slump. I have a whole load of it that I will be reusing again for the suspended timber floor in our house (but not under any wet rooms) - as I'd already bought it, it may as well not go to waste.

    The only problem I found was that if you get a water leak, it obviously needs to be thrown out.

    You'd need to ensure you have a good vapour barrier as while it is hygroscopic I wouldn't want it to get too damp.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2020 edited
     
    Why would it get damp if it's part of a 'breatheable' configuration, as a simple loft insulation, well ventilated above, should be?

    By damp you mean wet from liquid condensation? High RH is harmless, except when approaching 100% RH for sustained periods, long enough for mould to get established. As long as RH declines annually (and any liquid condensation evaporates), any early mould growth will die. If they persist year-on-year, mould or rot get established. Liquid water held in the sacs of an organic insulant is also harmless

    AIUI, Simply adding a vapour barrier to a 'breatheable' configuration is not a safety measure. Vapour barriers are a prime way to prevent re-drying - drying inward is just as important as drying outward.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2020
     
    Posted By: fostertomWhy would it get damp

    Well Simon did say 'if you get a water leak'! And I'd agree. I expect if it gets good and wet it will turn into papier mache. I suspect he used the term 'vapour barrier' loosely and was perhaps thinking of a control layer like Intello.
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2020
     
    Posted By: fostertomWhy would it get damp if it's part of a 'breatheable' configuration, as a simple loft insulation, well ventilated above, should be?


    My purpose was more to elicit further information about bxman's question: "fill in and top up my loft in the odd place" to understand the context of his situation, and to illustrate that I have some experience working with the stuff, including when it gets damp (and when it gets soaked). :wink:

    In my mind, there's no point assuming the existing system buildup and its suitability for cellulose insulation as we simply don't know what it is.

    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: fostertomWhy would it get damp

    Well Simon did say 'if you get a water leak'! And I'd agree. I expect if it gets good and wet it will turn into papier mache. I suspect he used the term 'vapour barrier' loosely and was perhaps thinking of a control layer like Intello.


    Indeed, it can turn into papier mache, you could pretty much make recycled writing paper with it I'd think. And yes, I did mean vapour barrier loosely :smile:
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2020
     
    Thanks folks
    The installation in my loft left a little to be desired I was hoping to improve it by feeding in the cellulose to the gaps where the strips had been cut to short or had not been wide enough .

    I had got an impression that cellulose was the best material admittedly from viewing material from across the pond .

    It is so it seems not that easy to source over here in modest quantities without paying nearly as much for the carriage as for the product itself . In hoping to find some locally from a professional installer.
    I gathered that it was in a word it was "cxxp"

    So my post was aimed at finding further information from actual users of the product.

    There is clearly the necessity to avoid saturation with water but that appliers to most insulating materials particularly the mineral wool already installed . I has not realised that it was hygroscopic to any extent .

    It was suggested that it harboured vermin and that it was not that fire retardant .
  7.  
    I used a lot 10-15 years ago as loose-fill, mainly in lofts, as it was a fair bit cheaper than the 'quilt' alternatives. The Housing Ass'n I worked for prior to that had used it a lot - blown in) about 30 years ago.

    Disadvantages in use: If you do not do as SimonD described (whisk it up, which is incredibly dusty) you won't get the advertised coverage. The instructions used, I think, to say something like 'rub it in your fingers to loosen it up'. That's fine for one bag (if tedious) but no go for a lot.

    Once it is in, any return to the loft space will disturb it considerably, and IMO it will not get thoroughly re-distributed, so, for example, if you have had some wiring re-done, your insulation after that visit is unlikely to be what it was before.

    There is nuisance dust throughout the operation.

    'My' HA did get one significant mouse infestation and the then supplier appeared not to be interested. This was in an underfloor situation, blown in between floor and 'under-slung' membrane. No compensation was paid. I have not had any rodent issues with the installations I have done.

    I stopped using it after a high-summer installation job, with apex-void temps probably 35-40 degrees. By the end of the day I was encrusted with papier mache, and of course that was liberally deposited on the client's stairs as I went to and fro. Dust-sheets? Yes, but everything was covered in fine Warmcel dust.

    The mess is a real practicality. The 'fall-out' is a lot greater than any quilt. Basically unless you hoover yourself down before every 'journey' downstairs, you will distribute it around the house.

    Your small-scale use is probably fine. It will be tedious, but so will any 'gap-stuffing' exercise. Good luck. Please report back.
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: bxmanThanks folks

    I had got an impression that cellulose was the best material admittedly from viewing material from across the pond .
    It was suggested that it harboured vermin and that it was not that fire retardant .


    It is indeed pretty popular over in North America.

    As for vermin, when we bought our current project house, a 1920s bungalow, we found the loft to be infested with rats. It was insulated with typical glass-wool insulation and they seemed pretty happy with that for a duvet....removing it was a really horrible job.

    I actually put a torch to the cellulose insulation to demonstrate its lack of flammability because my wife and boys were worried about having 'newspaper' in the floor.

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