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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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  1.  
    Struggled with all the local joinery shops and glazing firms to get an honest price on a replacement shop front for my wife's shop.

    The total opening is 6m X 2.4m with a single door currently in the centre, nothing really fancy.

    Having had one quote at £9000 + VAT and one at £22,000 for aluminium we've decided to do ourselves with our carpenter we use.

    We've already bought the external rebated French doors and hardwood frame for £500 delivered. On to the window frames next....

    As they are non opening, I guess we just buy 4 lengths of moulded framing timber (any size?) per window. Mortice and tenon joints fine? Any kits to use or general tips and just form a rectangle....

    Glazing we need 8.8mm laminated given the area, found a local supplier for that pretty cheap but may get a supply and fit price for that as they're coming in at 100kg per pane.... Or are the glass handling suction pads from Screwfix okay? Would you trust them??

    Wood will be primed, undercoated and glossed at home and a further gloss coat once in situ. That sound right?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2020 edited
     
    i would buy a sill section for the bottom - needs fall and drip - this needs to be fully supported for its entire length presumably on bricks with a motrar bed and dpc.

    screwed joints might be ok tenons better
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2020
     
    Can you get double glazed sealed units for this size?

    That's a lot of heat loss for the next 10-20 years...
  2.  
    You can but just these 2 panes of laminated glass is £1200. DG would be double and weigh in at 200kg and have a high chance of being smashed being on a high street. So no chance.

    Building is in insulated though with 50mm IWI, 500mm lift insulation, led bulbs and an air to air heat pump. So it's a no go

    Any particular size timber for the sill and frames Tony?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2020
     
    Sill ex 150x50 frame ex 100x38
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2020
     
    That weight of glass would only trust Bohle glass handling suckers made in Germany quality stuff.
    I would joint the frame if you get atmospheric variations moisture / temperature screwed wood will move as the screws are drawn into the wood or become loose as wood shrinks/ expands. Use at least a D3 grade glue or preferably D4. Some of the PU adhesives are D4.
  3.  
    Posted By: VictorianecoYou can but just these 2 panes of laminated glass is £1200. DG would be double and weigh in at 200kg and have a high chance of being smashed being on a high street. So no chance.

    Toughened glass might be cheaper.

    If you want to go DG would toughened / laminated for the outer pane with standard glass inside be acceptable? One big advantage of DG would be the lack of condensation on the inside which will probably occur with single glazing and if / when it does can quickly rot out timber frames (for the same reason if you go DG I would use warm edge).

    Would having smaller glass units make a worthwhile saving? E.g. dividing the windows in 2 - more work for the framing and breaks up the shop front but might give savings (or 3 equal windows with the door off set). Is the door flush with the windows or set back?

    Posted By: VictorianecoDG would be double and weigh in at 200kg and have a high chance of being smashed being on a high street. So no chance.

    I would presume they would be covers by insurance - But anyway you will need public liability insurance in case the glass was broken and someone was hurt as a result.

    Are the windows display windows or just giving light and vision into the shop?
  4.  
    They are display windows for a bridal shop so they need to be in one large unit so cannot be split up

    Forgive my ignorance does anyone have an image of a basic drawing of a window frame? The carpenter is happy to fit, the joinery shop said we need to specify the profile and detail...

    My guess is externally glazed is best given the size of any future repairs, so what type of profile does one need?

    Just thinking aloud, does one fit the sill then the window frame on top and then any finishing trims to sides last?

    And any preference on timber? It will be painted....
  5.  
    Also I found a guide suggesting the glass must be 8.8mm thick given the size, Does DG using 4mm each pane actually count?
  6.  
    Posted By: VictorianecoAlso I found a guide suggesting the glass must be 8.8mm thick given the size, Does DG using 4mm each pane actually count?

    No it does not. However it does not mean using 2 x 8mm for DG either.

    The thickness of glass required will depend upon the type of glass, whether it is DG, and the wind-loading expected. E.g. I saw a table that showed 8mm as 6m2 max and 4mm + 4mm as 3.3m2 max but this was not a UK table.

    If you ask for quotes for your given glazed size the supplier should give the correct thickness (and type options) for the location and use either DG or single because they will know.
  7.  
    Silly question, do I just ask for 150 x 50 window frame or is there a specific profile I should ask for?

    Does the frame (4 sides) sit on top of sill? If so, do I ask for a 150 x 50mm sill?
  8.  
    The sill can be part of the frame (i.e. the bottom rail of the frame) or the frame can sit on the sill. It depends what you have to start with. If the sill exists, is in good nick, covers the width of the wall etc. then frame on top of sill, if the opening is devoid of anything useful then the frame might as well include the sill. It also could depend upon the width of the wall under the window and where exactly the window goes.

    If you get DG then when the glass is installed make sure there are spacers under the DG unit to lift the glass off the frame otherwise you will get premature failure of the DG unit with internal condensation.

    With regards to asking for a 151 x 50 frame or asking for a profile consider -
    If you ask for a specific profile or item then if it is provided then the liability is yours
    If you tell the provider your needs then the liability for 'fit for purpose' is the providers.
    So tell the provider what you are wanting to do and let them provide something suitable. (could include a site visit)
    Oh and the same thing applies to the glass - tell the provider the need is and let them decide what complies with the regs. Any decent glass provider should ask what the use is to be and refuse to supply something that would be dangerous anyway.
  9.  
    Good tips, the online joinery shop I used for the french doors and hardwood frame the joiners are off with furlough so I can't get specific advice.

    I'll try another company. Although I found one company that can make the frames and they are only a 70mm profile...
  10.  
    My carpenter said he can make the frame with 4x3, screwed and dowelled. Am I just asking for trouble?

    Can't find exact profiles of what I need
  11.  
    Looking at ordering up some Meranti 4 x 2 for the frames and a sill section. Is there a requirement to use hardwood given that it will all be painted anyway?

    Rather than rebating the timber can I simply glue and screw say 1 x 1 timber into the frame to act as the stop?

    Then the glass will be fixed to the stop using glazing tape and then traditional glazing bead fixed to seal up?

    Just trying to work out how any water that may get behind the bead would drain off onto the sill?

    Reveals can just be finished off by foaming any gaps and then using 25mm cover strips or whatever or even mastic.....

    Seems quite straight forward when I think about it....
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2020
     
    Have you thought about using Accoya acetylated softwood? Expensive but very stable and immune to water and insect damage.
  12.  
    From my limited research it seems a bit pricy for what it is, also not sure about it's economic credentials given where it is shipped, treated and so on
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2020
     
    Posted By: VictorianecoFrom my limited research it seems a bit pricy for what it is, also not sure about it's economic credentials given where it is shipped, treated and so on

    Would you care to give us some details of where you have searched about where Accoya is sourced and processed? Ditto for the meranti you're thinking of buying, please.

    FWIW, there's at least one alternative to Accoya called Thermowood. I have no idea of the relative merits or prices, I'm afraid.
  13.  
    Posted By: VictorianecoLooking at ordering up some Meranti 4 x 2 for the frames and a sill section. Is there a requirement to use hardwood given that it will all be painted anyway?

    Rather than rebating the timber can I simply glue and screw say 1 x 1 timber into the frame to act as the stop?

    Then the glass will be fixed to the stop using glazing tape and then traditional glazing bead fixed to seal up?

    Just trying to work out how any water that may get behind the bead would drain off onto the sill?

    Reveals can just be finished off by foaming any gaps and then using 25mm cover strips or whatever or even mastic.....

    Seems quite straight forward when I think about it....


    You can use softwood - but it won't last as long - but it is cheaper.

    Yes you can make up profiles by glue and screw - but IMO not as good as machined profile.

    Water can drain through slots / weep holes you leave in the base of the outside beading for the purpose of drainage.

    Make your own frames by all means - with made up profiles in softwood, make sure the frames are square regardless of the wall because the glass you order will be square. The sill can be given a slope (to aid the shedding of water) by careful use of a hand held sander.

    You could use the walls as a foundation if the timber is packed out to ensure square which would avoid the need to make a frame and then install it. - No corner joints needed just cutting to length.

    I would also use DG units with warm edge IMO worth the extra to avoid condensation on the inside. I'm not convinced that 3G would be worth the extra (not to mention the weight during installation)

    Don't forget to put spacers under the DG unit to lift it off the frame sill to avoid the DG unit sitting in damp or water. Allow for this in the frame makeup and glass size.

    Paint the madeup frame thoroughly before the glass is installed.
  14.  
    Hi djh, it was just a quick Google and stumbled across another forum discussing it. And the cost was prohibitive sand didn't appear to be eco friendly

    I think the best logical option may be home grown softwood, even CLS?? I just don't want to go the extent of the install and it fails in a years time.

    Peter, correct me if I'm wrong but are you suggesting to fit stops to the side of the opening and no requirement for a frame as such?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 5th 2020
     
    Posted By: VictorianecoI think the best logical option may be home grown softwood

    Please don't do that. You'll regret it.

    correct me if I'm wrong but are you suggesting to fit stops to the side of the opening and no requirement for a frame as such?

    You seem to have entirely misunderstood what PiH said.
  15.  
    "You could use the walls as a foundation if the timber is packed out to ensure square which would avoid the need to make a frame and then install it. - No corner joints needed just cutting to length."

    What does this mean then? No corner joints?
  16.  
    Posted By: Victorianeco"You could use the walls as a foundation if the timber is packed out to ensure square which would avoid the need to make a frame and then install it. - No corner joints needed just cutting to length."

    What does this mean then? No corner joints?

    Make the sill without the rear stop (don't forget the drip bead or channel) and fix this to the wall making sure it is level, then fix the side rails (again without the rear stop) to what ever you have at the sides making sure that they are vertical and the back matches with the back of the sill, then fix the top rail to what ever you have at the top ensuring a good fit between the side rails and the back matches the back of the side rails. After this you will have framed out the opening hopefully with a level and square wooden square. Then fix (glue and screw) say 25mm x 25mm batten to the rear of the frame, all 4 sides, as the stop against which the glass unit can be installed with glass beading to the front. No joints, just accurate fixing to the building structure, which a pre-made frame would need anyway.

    I would suggest 50 x 100 as the sill with 50 x 75 for the other rails as a minimum otherwise 50 x 150 for the sill with 50 x 100 for the other rails depending upon the local situation and the glass unit chosen.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2020
     
    Traditional way is ex 4 x 3 head and stiles with a rebate on the inside and moulding to exterior. The cill should be chamfered eternally and can extend to form a drip depending on whether its sat on a wall or panelling etc. Yes the cill (sill) is better in hardwood. A stop bead internally 15mm x 40 or so retains the glass which you can seal with low modulus silicone sealant.

    We usually get the glass delivery guys to lend hand installing. You have webbing strops passed under the glass, 4 people or 6 stand in pairs pushing shoulder to shoulder against the glass which you keep upright. Install blocks so you can sit the glass in the rebate loosely and then pull the webbing out. Use suckers for safe lifts with in the frame, shifting about etc but it can be fatal to rely on them for a big otherwise unsupported lift.

    Really a shop window should be massively cheaper than a domestic install. pound per sqm, its simple technology, usually no openers, basic carpentry.

    Guess you could look at the clear foil 'wraps' that trap heat in, applied by people on the same way as tinted car window treatments
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2020
     
    I am having a large Georgian style shopfront replaced at the moment.

    Its in a listed building in a town centre and having to satisfy conservation.

    I am having it made of Accoya, its going to be there a long time and the extra cost over other options is a very small proportion of the cost.

    I have also specified DG, 8.8-16-8.8 laminated both sides. I think they are going to be very heavy!
    The other option was 8.8mm laminated but I think DG is the way to go especially as they are quite large windows, the heat loss and condensation is going to be huge.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2020
     
    Posted By: nigelI have also specified DG, 8.8-16-8.8 laminated both sides.

    I'm surprised you got listed building consent for that (but happy for you!). I've read so many stories about conservation officers objecting to conventionally-spaced double glazing :cry:
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2020
     
    Well they haven't yet signed it off.

    I have approval of the Listed Building Consent but they haven't signed off the final drawing yet on the conditions.

    Our conservation officer is pragmatic, the current frontage is awful, and not original, what i am doing is restoring it back to more what it was originally.

    As you say some conservation officers can be very difficult.
  17.  
    Richy, interesting comments regarding the 4x3 and that is what the carpenter also suggested. I'm still struggling to find what profile to ask for?

    Is it just simply 4x3 rebated timber?

    Nigel - what is your source for Accoya?
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2020
     
    I am not sourcing any of it myself, the joinery company are supplying everything.

    I am just going to stand by and admire their work.

    I would have thought somewhere like Lathams would supply Accoya for you.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2020
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: djh</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: nigel</cite>I have also specified DG, 8.8-16-8.8 laminated both sides.</blockquote>
    I'm surprised you got listed building consent for that (but happy for you!). I've read so many stories about conservation officers objecting to conventionally-spaced double glazing<img src="/newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title=":cry:"></img></blockquote>

    Apologies for being off topic, but i’m currently putting some life back into an old barn/oast, only listed in ‘74 and has all sortsmof add ons and changes to what alledgedly may be bits of a building thats been on site since around 1750 ( personally i’d challenge anyone to find a bit of it). Only one window is properly old, then its 1960’s sashes and 70’s casements , with a few old crittals and a likely 1930’s casement bay.
    My local council despite declaring a climate emergency last year , has an outright ban on any form of double glazing, in listed buildings. Though apparently a couple of buildings have managed it on appeal.

    Back on topic, accoya is a firm favourite with many joinery firms, though the long life guarantees are pretty worthless as they require very specific coating specs. But peope i’ve spoken too can’t speak highly enough of its stability and as a result no call backs to ease windows/doors or snag defects in paint finishes. ( i’ve built the oast cowl and one window from it so far).
    If you want your windows to last then a hardwood or accoya is the way to go, rebated and properly jointed. To minimise any areas water can penetrate and start rot, ie, proper mortice and tenons and mason mitres where required.
   
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