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General: Smart Meter (again!)

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  1.  
    Sorry I'll clarify: 'The vital next step is not for the meter to communicate with the IHD - rather it needs to communicate **via the CAD or via the supplier's internet server** with the immersion heater and the ASHP and the towel rail to run them at the cheapest times. Having an open and easy way for this to just-work would really help. This will probably have to involve the internet because the security around the ZigBee HAN is necessarily so rigid and slow to develop, but it would be better if there were a parallel lower-security *in-home network* which the ASHP could join easily.'

    As an aside: yesterday evening I slow-cooked some beef with onions and stock in the oven for 2 hours, then put them in a pie and baked another hour. The extra electricity used by the oven is quite visible in the half hourly data, about 60p more than if I had stir-fried them on the hob, but if I were on a smart tariff I would have saved by letting the oven decide to cook them at midday. Tasted good.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2020
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenSorry I'll clarify
    Yes I get that, but it just isn't going to happen in that way directly from the SM system.

    You can do it, but you need another device to do it (such as Home Assistant).

    Posted By: WillInAberdeento run them at the cheapest times.
    Personally, I want them to run when I need them. The towel rail running at 1am is not much use to me :bigsmile:

    Somethings like the immersion heater, if the cheapest is 15p/kWh in a 24hr period, I definitely do not want to run it.

    The variables for each individual are immense and a central system simply could not cope. If it did, you would end up tied into one eco-system and that is not a good idea IMHO.
  3.  
    Think we have the same expectations, but DJH and others don't want to use the internet for this stuff, they want their data to remain within their home, which is reasonable too.

    If I can get electricity for 5p/unit at 2am, I'm quite happy for the towel rail and immersion to decide to run themselves then, so long as there is hot water and a dry towel ready next morning without attention from me! And if that's when the grid intensity is low then so much the better.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2020
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenAnd if that's when the grid intensity is low then so much the better.
    And there you have thrown in another variable to the equation :bigsmile:.

    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThink we have the same expectations, but DJH and others don't want to use the internet for this stuff,
    The only thing I need to use the 'internet' for in this instance (i.e. the data is from outside my LAN) is to get the tariff data and NTP time; everything else just happens internally.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: borpinIn addition, the meters do not reliably know what the current half hour tariff is nor (and more importantly) accurately know what he time is.
    The meter must know the time fairly accurately for agile tariffs. It doesn't need the tariff as such but it needs to know which half-hour bucket the joules need to be counted in.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2020
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesThe meter must know the time fairly accurately for agile tariffs.
    From everything I have read, it seems it does drift, but I could be wrong. I certainly wouldn't set a watch by it.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2020
     
    Posted By: djh Just ask your supplier? I'd be surprised if anybody's still fitting SMETS1.


    Last I heard was back in August when the government said something about allowing more to be installed due to a shortage of smeets 2? Think there was an article in The Times.
  8.  
    When the SM/IHD was first switched on, it quickly and correctly displayed in £-p and added the standing charge at midnight each day, even for a few days before we connected it to the WiFi. Don't know how it did it, I assume the SM receives the tariff from the DCC over WAN and passes it to the IHD over HAN? In which case it could pass it to the immersion as well, over a local wireless network if not over HAN. But I have little knowledge of this stuff, please say if it happens another way.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThink we have the same expectations, but DJH and others don't want to use the internet for this stuff, they want their data to remain within their home, which is reasonable too.

    Yes, that's correct. I'd rather not have my household systems such as heating depend on a working Internet connection for their correct functioning.

    If I can get electricity for 5p/unit at 2am, I'm quite happy for the towel rail and immersion to decide to run themselves then

    I'm not. Again I want the freedom to use my own control system or systems (or that of an arbitrary third person/company) together with a standard off-the-shelf stupid (non-smart) towel rail and immersion.

    I believe that's likely to be a more maintainable, reliable and long-lived arrangement than proprietary smart devices.
  10.  
    It's all the same to me - the "arbitrary third-person control system" is just another "proprietary smart device".

    But anyone should be able to choose whichever they feel comfortable with, and it should "have an open and easy way for this to just-work".

    Same idea with smart lighting, you can choose a plug-in smart bulb, or plug it into a smart socket, or fit a wired-in smart relay, it should all work the same.

    For the ASHP, the smart bit should be in the appliance because it can do more than just on-off control - eg it could adjust its flow temperature and pump speed based on the energy price.

    If you are willing to get your heating a working internet connection, it could adjust based on tomorrow's sunshine forecast (as you were trying), but clearly it needs a sensible fall back.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2020
     
    Posted By: djhI'd rather not have my household systems such as heating depend on a working Internet connection for their correct functioning.
    Agreed. For me, that is why I use Tasmota with HA; there is no *need* for an internet connection (the switches just talk locally).
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2020
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenIt's all the same to me - the "arbitrary third-person control system" is just another "proprietary smart device".

    The difference is that (a) it's my choice, (b) the third-party may well be an open-source offering and (c) as a result of it being arbitrary I'm not tied to any particular.

    Same idea with smart lighting, you can choose a plug-in smart bulb, or plug it into a smart socket, or fit a wired-in smart relay, it should all work the same.

    Dunno, I don't see the point of 'smart' lights.

    For the ASHP, the smart bit should be in the appliance because it can do more than just on-off control - eg it could adjust its flow temperature and pump speed based on the energy price.

    Well, I'd like to see the control part of any smart appliance externalised so it can be separated (and replaced separately, specifically) from the dumb hardware part of the appliance. A 'heat pump' shouldn't know anything about where the electricity is coming from, let alone its price. That's a control system function.

    If you are willing to get your heating a working internet connection, it could adjust based on tomorrow's sunshine forecast (as you were trying), but clearly it needs a sensible fall back.

    Good luck on getting a reliable sunshine forecast on today's Internet. It's a gap in the market for somebody, I think. But yes, it would be a useful input to a control system though whether it should need an Internet connection is optional. I suppose at present, 'the Internet' is the answer to pretty much any question.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2020
     
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55299779

    Gmail, Google Drive, etc, plus:

    “The outage also affected Google-connected smart devices such as Home speakers - leading some users to complain on social media of being unable to switch off some lights in their homes.”

    “The Google crisis may have been brief - it took services offline for less than an hour - but it was an unnerving reminder of just how dependent millions of people have become on services in the cloud.”
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed Daviesleading some users to complain on social media of being unable to switch off some lights in their homes

    Aargh! Yes, exactly that kind of worry.

    And Amazon had a similar problem last month ...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55087054

    We had *four* brief power cuts yesterday. That's bad enough. Every time I have to go around rebooting computers, resetting kitchen appliance clocks, resetting emergency lights (yes, I know!). My emonbase doesn't seem to have come back - it's not responding to pings or ssh, let alone offering a web service. I need to go dig it out and connect it to a screen and keyboard to see what happened, if I'm lucky.

    There was one fault on a power cable somwehere within a few miles of us. I think what happened is that whilst repairing it either the repair crew or the automatic systems switched power to different circuits four times. It seems the switches that the DNO has around here are dumb enough to interrupt the power when they do this. The ones in Hertfordshire didn't cause these problems so I suppose it's a problem caused by bean counters.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2020
     
    Posted By: djhMy emonbase doesn't seem to have come back - it's not responding to pings or ssh, let alone offering a web service. I need to go dig it out and connect it to a screen and keyboard to see what happened, if I'm lucky.
    As a matter of interest, is this on a surge protection device? IME, it is not the cutting of power that does for SD Cards it is the associated surge. I know behind a transformer it shouldn't matter, but I've hard powered down hundreds of times, and never had a card fail.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2020
     
    Posted By: borpinAs a matter of interest, is this on a surge protection device? IME, it is not the cutting of power that does for SD Cards it is the associated surge. I know behind a transformer it shouldn't matter, but I've hard powered down hundreds of times, and never had a card fail.

    Nope. It will have a battery when I put it all back together. IMHO it's a design fault in Pis - I've never had any other computer fail to reboot after a power failure, except when something was actually killed.
  17.  
    Sounds like a design fault with the usb plug in adapter, which should put out steady 5V when mains are on, irrespective whatever V the mains are? AIUI the Pi has a built-in 'fuse' in line with the power socket, but you can bypass this via the gpio.

    You can get UPS 'hats' for Pi, but they draw a lot of current to run from a battery continuously long term.

    The new 18th Ed wiring regs provide for us to have whole-house surge protection devices, which go in the consumer unit next to the incomers, to protect all the electronic gubbins that we will all connect to the mains - LED lights, smart lighting, smart ASHPs, smart towel rails, etc...!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2020
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenSounds like a design fault with the usb plug in adapter

    It's the official one from the shop.

    AIUI the Pi has a built-in 'fuse' in line with the power socket, but you can bypass this via the gpio.

    Yes there's a fuse MF-MSMF250/X and a built-in surge protector SMBJ5.0A. The fuse doesn't blow. So I don't know what it is that makes Pis so susceptible but I wish they'd fix it.

    I can't say I've ever really had any problems with mains surges, and the system never logs any. AIUI the rules for what's allowed to come down the wire are very explicit and pretty strict, so IMHO everything intended to be connected to the mains should be designed to cope with that and there should be no need for extra gubbins.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2020
     
    Posted By: Ed Davieshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55299779" rel="nofollow" >https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55299779

    Gmail, Google Drive, etc, plus:

    “The outage also affected Google-connected smart devices such as Home speakers - leading some users to complain on social media of being unable to switch off some lights in their homes.”

    “The Google crisis may have been brief - it took services offline for less than an hour - but it was an unnerving reminder of just how dependent millions of people have become on services in the cloud.”


    Welcome to the brave new world of the Internet!
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: borpinAs a matter of interest, is this on a surge protection device? IME, it is not the cutting of power that does for SD Cards it is the associated surge. I know behind a transformer it shouldn't matter, but I've hard powered down hundreds of times, and never had a card fail.

    Nope.
    Ok I'll stand by my position that it is not the removal of the power that does for SD Cards, it is something else associated with a power cut (and all I can think of is a surge/spike). I've *never* had an SD Card fail due to a DNO power cut when the Pi is behind a surge protector.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    I've had a few power cuts since getting my “always on” Pi in early 2017. Always rebooted OK, same SD card, touch C24. No household surge protector, my always-on stuff is on a nominally surge-protected socket strip but the surge protection light has been out on that for years so I assume it's long since failed.

    The only hassle is telling when the clock's set properly afterwards to know when it makes sense to re-start logging. Somewhere along the line flags get set which mean the system (Raspbian) reports the clock is synchronized when all it's really done is set it to the last recorded time before the power failed. Here's my initial approach to working around that: https://edavies.me.uk/2018/06/pi-clock/

    Recently I've started running my logger as a systemd service following: https://blog.debiania.in.ua/posts/2020-11-27-howto-delay-a-systemd-service-until-the-clock-is-synchronized.html

    Conversation prompting that write up: https://functional.cafe/@minoru/105262268957751522
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: borpinI'll stand by my position that it is not the removal of the power that does for SD Cards

    Just to mention that I have never had an SD card fail either, that's not my problem. A failure to shutdown and bring up all services reliably in the event of a power cut is my problem. I'm fairly satisfied by the theory that excessive writes is what does for SD cards normally.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesThe only hassle is telling when the clock's set properly afterwards to know when it makes sense to re-start logging.

    It's worth noting that there was some conversation recently on the systemd-devel mailing list about clock recovery on devices without their own clocks, and I'm hopeful things may improve/change in the next little while.
  24.  
    From raspberrypi.org:
    "if the supply voltage drops below 4.63V ... will result in a warning ... entry being added to the kernel log.... can cause corruption of SD cards, or erratic behaviour of the Pi itself"

    Have you found out yet if it was the Pi or the SD card that
    has failed this time?

    Edit to add: the power system is slightly different in each model of Pi, the Pi Zero is pretty stripped down with no protective components, so no voltage drop across them. What model were you using?
    • CommentAuthorandyman99
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Just going back to the original question for a moment. I check my display automatically from time to time. You get to know what reading to expect without thinking. I can quickly tell if a hotter than normal wash has been done - sad. Last few mornings I noted the start of day usage was twice normal forcing me to investigate. Source was an instant water heater that was receiving water at too high a pressure and overflowing (not the first time so easy to identify). The point is I might not have noticed this for weeks if it wasn't for the meter, so just 1 positive example of its use.

    As regards internet enabled devices, my hive thermostat is excellent, it connects to the internet for "value added functions", but not for basic functionality. It will still control schedule/manual etc if the internet is unavailable via my local network. If a light switch doesn't do that, then clearly its not fit for purpose but I find that surprising if that's the case.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenHave you found out yet if it was the Pi or the SD card that has failed this time?

    Well the SD card is still readable so ...

    Edit to add: the power system is slightly different in each model of Pi, the Pi Zero is pretty stripped down with no protective components, so no voltage drop across them. What model were you using?

    Indeed. It's a Pi 3B+ that has the problem and has the components I mentioned. My ZeroWs don't have problems.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: andyman99Last few mornings I noted the start of day usage was twice normal forcing me to investigate. Source was an instant water heater that was receiving water at too high a pressure and overflowing (not the first time so easy to identify). The point is I might not have noticed this for weeks if it wasn't for the meter, so just 1 positive example of its use.

    Yes, my logging system does the same for me. I can easily see what's been happening. I don't need a smart meter or an IHD to do that.

    What would be useful to me is a smart meter with a CAD that directly gave me the data, not via a server on the Internet. But AFAIK although such things exist, there are no UK electricity suppliers that will supply them or allow me to connect my own.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2020
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesThe only hassle is telling when the clock's set properly afterwards to know when it makes sense to re-start logging.
    Yes had the same problem. That link to the Debian blog was interesting. I have previously modified /usr/lib/systemd/timesyncd.conf to reduce the polling time so it writes the restore file more often. That at least stops big jumps on reboot.
  29.  
    So far all the responses to wehter to have a smart meter or not refer to the ability to easily track electricity consumption, in real time etc

    You do not need a SM to do this.

    Apart from the ability to read real time elec consumotion, I see no other persuasive argument beingg put forward for why these SM are being installed. For the consumer.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2021
     
    Posted By: bot de pailleApart from the ability to read real time elec consumotion, I see no other persuasive argument being put forward for why these SM are being installed. For the consumer.
    Agile tariffs. Flexibility to charge batteries at low prices and discharge at high prices to help balance the grid. Might not be particularly cost effective, but being Green is not always about the financial rewards.

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