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  1.  
    DJH: >>>> "There's nothing that now stops the mass installation of PV or other home renewables"

    On the contrary! Home PV retrofit is no longer economic, as far as I could see. It's more effective to install PV in large solar farms.

    It has been suggested that investing in a battery with PV could help avoid exporting PV electricity at 1pm and reimporting it at higher price in the evening. I haven't looked at the economics, it must depend how you bet on prices differentials! It might be better to charge the battery at 3am rather than 1pm, as well as the car and the hot water cylinder.

    That's also the issue with V2G - ideally you'd charge the battery at 3am and discharge it the next evening at 6pm, without flattening the battery by driving anywhere inbetween. As the cost of electricity is so low compared to the other costs of EV ownership, and many people have not installed smart meters, I wonder how many of the public will want to participate in V2G, or will just drive home at 5pm and plug straight in?

    The economics for utility scale storage don't seem great either. The Coire Glas pumped storage scheme (biggest in UK) was intended to store power over several days of low wind, but has not progressed, reportedly not economic. It has just been reapproved with bigger turbines, so it can fill/empty on a shorter cycle to improve the cashflow.
  2.  
    Posted By: Simon Still
    >I've got this unit, but have never managed to successfully get it to connect to my meter (which is outside)

    >AIUI, it's the supplier's responsibility that the IHD works with the meter AS INSTALLED and they're not allowed to leave an installation that doesn't work. So chase Bulb to get it working.

    That's as maybe. I dont mind the smart meter but the energy monitor seems utterly pointless to me, both in terms of the resources to build it and the power to keep it running. Based on this thread I still don't see that it can tell me anything useful.
  3.  
    If you already have the monitor (so the resources are already consumed), why not just try it - what've you got to lose?

    I thought we were in control of our energy usage, so I was surprised that the monitor immediately showed up several other ways we were wasting electricity. I'm happy to bank the savings though!
  4.  
    I was the one who brought up home battery as energy storage, so yes I am talking about affordable!

    If research and government funding was poured into it, it could be made affordable and economic.

    Home energy storage would make mass adoption of home renewables meaningful for many reasons. Variable tarrifs would become obsolete.

    Tarrifs are based on the difference bwteen production and demand. simple market economics. Energy storage would render this difference meaningless.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2021
     
    Posted By: bot de pailleIf research and government funding was poured into it, it could be made affordable and economic.

    More likely that Tesla and other car manufacturers and their battery partners will solve it eventually if it is soluble, IMHO. But still likely to be the case that large shared systems are more cost effective than domestic systems. It would be nice to have a battery that made me immune to the nuisance power cuts we get here though, so I hope I'm wrong.

    Tarrifs are based on the difference bwteen production and demand. simple market economics. Energy storage would render this difference meaningless.

    I don't see why. Energy storage is already included in wholesale markets and has a significant price based on the cost of providing it. Electricity has to be used when it is generated - either consumed or turned into some other form of energy, so the price is always going to be time dependent (until we get to 'too cheap to meter' of course :bigsmile:)
  5.  
    ??
    Basic understanding of supply and demand will tell you that the ability to provide a productas and when needed affects it price. Not really rocket science 😉

    Think about it, why is electricity exspensive at peak times? because everyone wants to use it at the same time. during the night it is cheaper because we have large amounts of generation available but very little relative demand because everyone is asleep. Storage eliminates this dynamic because it does not matter when demand occurs or when generation occurs. it can all be offset. the supoly/demand curve is essentially flattened.

    lots of wind at 3am?no problem, generate with it and download the energy to households as they sleep, to be used later in the day during peak demand times, which means suppliers dont need to bring online or buy extra and expensive energy.


    Large scale national energy storage is important, but so is local domestic energy storage,because whilst we all follow similar patterns of usage through out the day which can be roughly predicted, home storage would allow the necissary flexibility on an individual home basis.
    Households can generate their own electricity in any manner they wish and store and use it.
  6.  
    Elon Musk?

    His EV development is based on government legislature, especially in California. Its well known that Tesla receives a huge amount of government money and legislative support. California passed a law mandating a minimum number of EV vehicles by a certain year. Other states have passed similar laws.
    just one example, there have been others:

    Barrons
    STOCK ALERT
    A California Truck Law Is Bullish for Nikola and Tesla Stock. Here’s Why.

    By Al Root
    July 6, 2020 6:30 am ET

    COURTESY NIKOLA

    A California law passed recently will benefit the electric vehicle sector, and could further drive enthusiasm for stocks such as Nikola and Tesla, as well as alternative fuel companies.

    California passed the Advanced Clean Trucks rule in late June. It requires heavy duty pickup trucks to be zero-emission vehicles. The rule will be phased in from 2024 through 2035."

    Musks space program? largely financed by putting US government and military equipment into space.

    The notion that these entrepreneurs are somehow doing this without government money or legislature is...
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: bot de paille
    Large scale national energy storage is important, but so is local domestic energy storage,because whilst we all follow similar patterns of usage through out the day which can be roughly predicted, home storage would allow the necissary flexibility on an individual home basis.
    Households can generate their own electricity in any manner they wish and store and use it.

    I don't see why domestic storage is so important. To me domestic battery storage looks like a gadget to boost "green credentials" where in reality it has very little potential for reducing CO2 emissions.
    It would be better to have the householder invest the money in reducing energy demand (insulation?) instead, and put the batteries in a location, and under the control of, a renewables operator.
  7.  
    Posted By: bhommels
    Posted By: bot de paille
    Large scale national energy storage is important, but so is local domestic energy storage,because whilst we all follow similar patterns of usage through out the day which can be roughly predicted, home storage would allow the necissary flexibility on an individual home basis.
    Households can generate their own electricity in any manner they wish and store and use it.

    I don't see why domestic storage is so important. To me domestic battery storage looks like a gadget to boost "green credentials" where in reality it has very little potential for reducing CO2 emissions.
    It would be better to have the householder invest the money in reducing energy demand (insulation?) instead, and put the batteries in a location, and under the control of, a renewables operator.


    Because it allows households to generate their own electricity however they wish, and store it.

    It also allows energy generators to download to households during periods of high renewables generation, freeing up battery space.


    There is nothing to say you cannot implement energy saving measures too.You do both.
  8.  
    Some very rough estimates (mine) about the proposed Coire Glas pumped hydro scheme:

    The turbines will have 1.5GW capacity, so during the 3-hour peak time each day, it can sell 1.5x3 = 4.5GWh, out of the total reservoir capacity of 30GWh.

    The scheme cost is described as 'over £1bn' so that works out as £1bn/4.5GWh = £200 per kWh of peaktime capacity, which I think is cheaper than home batteries.

    Over say 20years the cost per peaktime kWh would be £1bn / (4.5GWh *365 *20) = 3p per kWh, plus contingencies, plus interest, plus running costs, plus the cost of some of the electricity that gets wasted in the round-trip. Let's say 5p per kWh is the total cost of storing electricity, plus or minus lots.

    That seems quite expensive (compared to the usual wholesale price of electricity) so they are betting there will be long term price differences between peak and off-peak, and between windy and calm days.

    They can also make money from frequency stabilisation and backup reserve, but other competitors are doing this too.
  9.  
    Requiring off peak /on peak tarrifs prehaos is a sign that the proposed project is not financially viable. Consumers are essentially subsidizing an uneconomical model.
  10.  
    The project described above is a perfect example of why local household generation is important.

    rather than a huge financial investment for energy storage in one generation site (in this case pumped storage for windturbines in a certain location)

    local energy storage across the nation would be available to all generators,regardless of their location. spreading the costs. lestening the burden on individual generators and renewable projects.

    A national energy storage spread across local storage/households.

    This would also shift the balance of power from the generators/government towards the consumers who would be able to download their energy from the most efficient generator.
  11.  
    Think that's why it's been planned for many years and never built yet! Plans revived last year, and also for smaller pumped storage projects at Cruachan and Llanberis.

    If enough consumers can buy their own home batteries for less than £200 per kWh, then grid-scale storage wouldn't be needed. But I doubt that is going to happen anytime soon, given most folks' resistance (on this thread and more generally) to even having a time-of-use electricity meter installed for free, nevermind changing the time they import electricity.

    More likely that some people will buy batteries, and some companies build storage dams, and that still isn't enough storage to balance supply/demand prices in cold calm weather like today!

    Nevermind 'inter seasonal’ storage, which makes income only once per year!
  12.  
    Sufficient Battery storage eliminates the onpeak/off peak supply and demand paradigm.

    There is no need for a time of use meter.
    The consumer doesnt have to know or care if the elec they are using is coming from the grid or battery at any particular moment. the SM handles that automatically.
    They just concentrate on reducing consumption.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenIf enough consumers can buy their own home batteries for less than £200 per kWh, then grid-scale storage wouldn't be needed. But I doubt that is going to happen anytime soon, given most folks' resistance (on this thread and more generally) to even having a time-of-use electricity meter installed for free, nevermind changing the time they import electricity.

    I don't think that's right. If batteries were available at £200/kWh then I for one would buy one and a smart meter to go with it. I expect there's a lot of other people would too.
  13.  
    A lot of ppl dont want a smart meter because they only see it as benefiting the elec companies. Not everybody has the time and energy to watch tarrifs throughout the day.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2021
     
    Posted By: bot de pailleSufficient Battery storage eliminates the onpeak/off peak supply and demand paradigm.

    For which market - wholesale or retail?

    One other factor to think about with batteries is the risk. Any energy storage device has a risk associated with it, that needs to be managed. It's easier and likely more cost effective to manage the proper maintenance of lithium batteries in central, commercial installations than it is in individual homes. Not yet a big problem but as more batteries are installed and the age of the batteries increases there will be some fires.

    But I think you and I will just have to disagree on the likely future path of this technology, Bot.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen£200 per kWh of peaktime capacity, which I think is cheaper than home batteries.
    Chinese EV batteries are said to be down to $100/kWh at pack level now so I'd be expecting £200/kWh domestic batteries well before the end of the decade.
  14.  
    As EV vehicles become the norm, battery technology will advance leaps and bounds.
    Battery manufacturing will increase as an industry.
  15.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: bot de pailleSufficient Battery storage eliminates the onpeak/off peak supply and demand paradigm.

    For which market - wholesale or retail?

    One other factor to think about with batteries is the risk. Any energy storage device has a risk associated with it, that needs to be managed. It's easier and likely more cost effective to manage the proper maintenance of lithium batteries in central, commercial installations than it is in individual homes. Not yet a big problem but as more batteries are installed and the age of the batteries increases there will be some fires.

    But I think you and I will just have to disagree on the likely future path of this technology, Bot.


    For both retail and wholesale of course, why would there be a difference??

    If you can safely store an EV in your garage, you can safely put a home battery there too.

    I don't see why battery safety is all of a sudden a problem when we already have them pretty every where today. Phones , bikes, cars, tools.

    You stil have not given a reason why...

    .. Bearing in mind I proposed the notion of home energy storage long before Musk came up with his home battery.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenHowever in practice there has been much resistance by the public to get onboard with smart metering and electricity usage, even including from members of this forum.

    Maybe more resistance from the latter than the former?

    14.53 million smart meters installed to date - and 1.82 million in 2020, despite Covid (±7,000 per working day) doesn't seem bad to me, even though there was a slow start.

    https://www.electralink.co.uk/2020/12/smart-installs-dip-lockdowns-grip-gb/
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: bot de paille
    Because it allows households to generate their own electricity however they wish, and store it.

    This is the eco bling aspect.

    It also allows energy generators to download to households during periods of high renewables generation, freeing up battery space.

    Grid connectivity is, in most cases, the limiting factor with large scale renewables. Distributed domestic batteries will do nothing to mitigate these grid issues except for the relatively small amount of domestic microgeneration.

    There is nothing to say you cannot implement energy saving measures too.You do both.

    With infinite money, I'd be happy to!
  16.  
    Posted By: bhommels
    Posted By: bot de paille
    Because it allows households to generate their own electricity however they wish, and store it.

    This is the eco bling aspect.

    It also allows energy generators to download to households during periods of high renewables generation, freeing up battery space.

    Grid connectivity is, in most cases, the limiting factor with large scale renewables. Distributed domestic batteries will do nothing to mitigate these grid issues except for the relatively small amount of domestic microgeneration.

    There is nothing to say you cannot implement energy saving measures too.You do both.

    With infinite money, I'd be happy to!


    infinite money? you mean like the 10 billion spent on the track and trace app? Where did they get that money suddenly that they couldn't spend on home batteries?
  17.  
    Seems this is what its really all about

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-8706033/Smart-meters-used-switch-electricity-without-warning-compensation.html
  18.  
    Report is from last year, it is about this:

    https://smartenergycodecompany.co.uk/modifications/allow-dnos-to-control-electric-vehicle-chargers-connected-to-smart-meter-infrastructure/

    "This modification proposes ...to enable electricity Distribution Network Operators ... to modify Electric Vehicle charging load within a household. This is in order to avoid the risk of overloading low voltage circuits from secondary substations to properties, and therefore avoid power outages."

    "Latest update
    The Proposer has informed SECAS that they wish to place the modification on hold... to explore alternative solutions which are being developed which were not available when the SEC Modification was originally raised"
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2021
     
    Thanks, Will. Somewhat less dramatic than the article bot found. I'll read some more detail in the morning.
  19.  
    There is an amusing irony that some folks on GBF complain that smart meters are not smart enough, as they cannot switch things on and off at helpful times.

    This article is about a DNO who would like future generations of smart meters to be able to turn down everyone's car charger if the neighbourhood grid is about to get blacked out by everyone in the street plugging in at the same time. In which case they are now sinister agents of murky Big Business, out to exploit you.

    I don't know if the balance between these positions is correct yet, but I have some sympathy for whoever has the job of striking the balance, can't win.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2021
     
    Has anyone got the latest timeframe on the rollout of the SM WAN in the N of the UK.
    Apparently the WAN isn't fully operable in an area roughly N of the Humber. The last I read Aqiva were responsible for long range comms. in the N of the UK, with Telefonica supplying the HAN comms. for the Southern half.
    This may partly explain WiAs reference a few posts ago, regarding SMETs uptake reluctance.
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