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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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General: Is double glazing enough?

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthordaveking66
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    I’m looking to improve the thermal performance of my home (a detached Victorian solid brick property) with draft proofed sashes (to replace the leaky single glazed originals)

    Will this make it appreciably easier to heat? Or should I be considering other measures such as IWI? EWI would have too much impact on the overall look of the exterior unfortunately, so has been ruled out as an option.

    And the loft has already been insulated with 350mm of fibreglass.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    No! But in the hierarchy, first comes switching things off then draughtproofing and air sealing, insulation, ceilings walls and floors, windows are last on the list of priorities. I prefer 3g with no draughts round the frames.
    • CommentAuthordaveking66
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    Tony,
    Can you please elaborate when you say “in the hierarchy, first comes switching things off“

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthordaveking66
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    Tony please ignore my previous daft question - the coin has finally dropped! I’ve been looking at the problem
    purely through the blinkered perspective of insulation improvement.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    Posted By: tonyNo! But in the hierarchy, first comes switching things off then draughtproofing and air sealing, insulation, ceilings walls and floors, windows are last on the list of priorities. I prefer 3g with no draughts round the frames.

    You missed out ventilation.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    Not ventilation = throwing heat away, but please use heat recovery ventilation
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020
     
    Posted By: tonyNot ventilation =

    'not ventilation' = condensation and mould. The point is that you have to make deliberate provision for ventilation when you increase airtightness, by insulation or otherwise. It's best to ventilate by controlled means, not by accidental leaks. Simplest is to be religious about opening windows, but then you lose heat as Tony says, so various schemes such as PIV, MEV or (best) MVHR or passive heat recovery are available to choose from.
    • CommentAuthordaveking66
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2020 edited
     
    In the short term ventilation will have to be provided by a diligent window opening regime. I fitted MVHR in my old flat when I lived on my own but I need to pick my refurb battles more carefully now I have a family to consider. My partner is sceptical about IWI and is worried we could ruin the house, which is a completely legitimate concern given the potential risks of interstitial condensation build up. Although the improvement it could provide sounds tantalisingly transformative, from reading other posts, it does still feel like a bit of a niche activity with a huge amount of variables to consider.

    Does anyone know if there are any companies who could provide an objective appraisal of whether IWI would be suitable for our property? And whether it poses any particular risks? Does such a service exist?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2020
     
    Scottish heritage have published some good work on this and written advice.
    • CommentAuthordaveking66
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2020 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyScottish heritage have published some good work on this and written advice.


    Thanks - I’ve seen that report referenced in another post but couldn’t find it when I tried searching. Will give it another go
    • CommentAuthordaveking66
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2020 edited
     
    • CommentAuthortonya
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2021
     
    This may or may not have any bearing on your issue. We bought a modernish build (1959) because of the view and grounds it is on. We didn't expect it to be so cold but in noth facing rooms was unbearable. So i IWI'd the rooms and it has made a massive difference. I also ripped out the UPVC windows and decided to make wooden one (that was an education but saved £1000's) It has all worked well. Walls are now warm to the touch (double wall blockwork with gap and filled very badly at some point) I just battened internal walls and inserted Cellotex 20mm boards inbetween. Plasterboarded over. No damp or condensation issues.
  13.  
    Posted By: tonyaThis may or may not have any bearing on your issue. We bought a modernish build (1959) because of the view and grounds it is on. We didn't expect it to be so cold but in noth facing rooms was unbearable. So i IWI'd the rooms and it has made a massive difference. I also ripped out the UPVC windows and decided to make wooden one (that was an education but saved £1000's) It has all worked well. Walls are now warm to the touch (double wall blockwork with gap and filled very badly at some point) I just battened internal walls and inserted Cellotex 20mm boards inbetween. Plasterboarded over. No damp or condensation issues.


    Hi Tonya,

    Thanks for that. Can you let me know how you can be sure there aren’t any condensation issues building up behind the boards though? My fear with IWI is that you won’t realise there is a problem until years later when joists begin to fail
  14.  
    depending on what your frames are the difference in cost between 2g and 3g neednt be that much.
    in some upvc it's and additonal 10%

    With regard to Hierarchy once you've done the easy things and move on to insulating walls I'd have thought m2 of wall to windows would be part of the calculation as well as cost and potential energy saving for the two elements.

    Changing 10m2 of single glazing to triple may be more effective than say insulating 50m2 of wall depending on the gains and cost for each option.
  15.  
    https://pub-prod-sdk.azurewebsites.net/api/file/077941ba-3d29-4d1c-a4b4-a71d00af490f

    Historic Scotland refurbishment case study that was referred to - now in some government archive! They fitted moisture probes behind the insulation to verify it wasn't collecting water.

    Longer and more theoretical discussion paper here, this author has published other influential studies https://www.historicenvironment.scot/archives-and-research/publications/publication/?publicationId=8a2a7b9d-e3b2-4c7d-8c17-a59400a8387b
  16.  
    really good link, thanks WiA. Lock down 2021.1 (for Tony's benefit :bigsmile:) will be occupied reading the 250 odd pages. If we all read this document, I suspect there would be a lot less disagreement on GBF.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2021
     
    3g every time for me unless you are going quadruple 🙂
    • CommentAuthorGarethC
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021
     
    Incidentally, I've just today been into a lodge building opposite the Scottish Parliament that Historic Scotland use to showcase ways to upgrade the thermal performance of historic properties. They kindly invited me to install a secondary glazing product I've developed for their evaluation and feedback. Looking forward to hearing their thoughts, as they've already provided lots of useful input.

    Lovely building and fascinating place. You can see how they've used alternative ways to insulate the walls. I look forward to going back when I've a bit more time to poke about, and will upload some pics here of the most interesting stuff after I do.
    • CommentAuthordickster
    • CommentTimeOct 18th 2021
     
    I went triple although I am sure it made no financial sense.

    Philosophically it did. We are likely to be dead within next 15 years, so house will have new owners who will benefit, as will the next owners and so on. As will the planet, eventually.

    :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 18th 2021
     
    And you will make savings and live a quieter life

    Live long and prosper,

    Not everything is about money
  21.  
    Posted By: tonyNot everything is about money

    providing you have enough !

    And on another note - When 2G is typically 1.1 Ug and 3G is 0.07 I wonder how long it will take to recover the carbon footprint of 3G over 2G in the carbon footprint of the saved energy especially when heat pumps and green(er) grid supplies are factored in.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 18th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary3G is 0.07
    That's 0.7
    • CommentAuthorwholaa
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2021 edited
     
    On a very cold day, check how well that new 350mm of fibreglass is behaving with a thermal camera. You will be amazed how many cold gaps can be present by just a 10mm gap between ceiling and wool
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2021
     
    Posted By: wholaaOn a very cold day, check how well that new 3500mm of fibreglass is behaving with a thermal camera. You will be amazed how many cold gaps can be present by just a 1 cm gap between ceiling and wool

    Wow! 3.5 metres of fibreglass. That's impressive :bigsmile:

    I've never thought about gaps between loft insulation and the ceiling. How do they arise?

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