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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    Shop front replacement underway using hardwood sills and softwood CLS for the frames.

    Does one form the frame then undercoat and gloss all woodwork?

    Or undercoat and gloss prior to fixing the frame etc?

    My guess is the former.

    Any particular silicones or products to use when knocking it up?

    Where timber is screwed to timber (window to door for example or sill to frame) would you put a silicone bead in-between?

    Finally, how many fixings and locations to screw frames to wall/brickwork?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2021
    Knotting , primer, u/c and satinwood prior to glazing.

    Three fixings each side, good ones, two in the head, none in the sill

    Hope there is a fall on the sill and glass rebate, use drained bead for the bottom one.

    Butyl mastic putty to set glass - presumably white

    General purpose silicone to frame/brickwork outside painters mate inside.

    I never paint sill behind the drip so that it can breathe out any moisture - very old school on that but saves the sill in the long run

    Foaming wood glue to joints
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2021
    Or, for an entirely breathable coating, knotting followed by a few coats of linseed oil paint.

    I know that Allbäck & Brouns are available in the UK. Other brands include Kreidezeit, Nature et Harmonie, Rutolin, Uula & no doubt others.
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2021
    I've just installed new timber windows and doors throughout my house. I opted to use fixing straps instead of drilling and fixing through the frames. The straps are screwed to the outside of the window frame and then I just used masonry screws into existing masonry wall and woodscrews into the timber frame.

    My fixings were as per the supplier screwed in about between 100-150mm from each corner and I have then spaced the straps at 400mm centres around the rest of the frame.

    Where frames are connected between say a door and sidelight I've screwed and used either a silicon sealant, or a sealant/adhesive. Where I haven't needed to screw together, i.e. horizontal connection, I've just used sealant/adhesive. On all these connections, both internal and external I have an addition painted wood bead that laps the joint and hides the sealant/adhesive.

    Remember to use packers at the bottom and side corners and just top side corners and below any mullions.

    Sealant and foam wise, I've used Soudal SWS window system which comprises Soudal 215LM external sealant, SWS Expanding Foam to fill between frame and wall, and Soudal Acrylic Acrylirub SWS paintable internal sealant. The sealant adhesive I'm using is Soudal Fix-All Flexi

    Picture attached of fixing in timber frame I'll also post additional photo in masonry.
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2021
    Masonry fixing with straps adjusted to avoid brick edges and mortar.
    Excellent comments and food for thought.

    How does the sill fit to the blockwork then if no fixings Tony? Just use the brackets as above and fix to the brickwork or is the frame screwed downwards into the sill? Or screw up through the sill into the frame? So essentially the frame and sill form one big frame?

    This frame (sill and frame) then gets fixed high level above and sides only so the sill essentially rests on the blockwork/DPM thereafter?

    There is a fall on the sill but not on the frame, I'll get one added for good measure
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2021
    Gravity holds the sill in place, normally a sill is set on a bed of mortar, if very low down like a door then it also has a dpc
    Timber now all knotted with Zinsser BIN

    Oil based primer next...
    Tony, do you paint the frame that sits against the brickwork that can't be seen or do you allow this to breathe also?
    Is there anything that shows evidence of oil based versus water based versus linseed paint etc?

    Or is it all just branding?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2021
    I paint the frame where is sits against brickwork unless it is lime mortar

    Linseed oil paints are breathable, one of the reasons why so much Victorian joinery has outlasted postwar stuff
    So where you've mentioned primer, undercoat and satinwood are these all oil or water based?

    Or go with linseed based which according to one supplier mentioned above there is no need for undercoat or primer....
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2021
    I was thinking water based primer and u/c oil based top coat

    By all means go one better and use linseed oil paint
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2021
    Posted By: VictorianecoIs there anything that shows evidence of oil based versus water based versus linseed paint etc?

    Or is it all just branding?

    It's certainly not all branding - it's more vapour permeable. Linseed oil was used for centuries before the advent of synthetic paints, ether with natural pigments or with lead. The use of lead has now ended, of course.

    With the quest to reduce VOCs and dissatisfaction with the durability of 'modern' paints (rather than peeling and cracking, linseed deteriorates gracefully over longer timescales) it's seen a resurgence, though it's never gone away entirely.

    More recently it's been used by English Heritage (https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/brodsworth-hall-and-gardens/caring-for-brodsworth/#), for the Chateau of Versailles (http://www.iiconservation.org/node/6496) and others.

    The main consideration is drying time; if you're painting in a workshop prior to fitting then probably around 48 hours per coat. If painting outside it's best undertaken in summer. But see the individual manufacturers for guidelines & tips on technique - it's much runnier and applied thinner than modern paints, but covers more per litre.
    Ah okay, so I'm at the stage where the knots have been zinsser BIN and screw holes have now been 2 pack filled

    So we reckon linseed oil paint would be the best all round?
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeFeb 9th 2021
    I’ve used Jotun Demidekk ultimate windows and doors (for all but one item)outside decorating for the last 5 years, relatively expensive but a one pot solution , not had to touch anything up yet.
    Do you have any reference pictures or tips? looking for a black in a matt/satin finish...

    My concern at the moments is sealing any gaps etc?
    The technical guide sheets recommends primers etc for that though?
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2021
    So it does, they must have changed the paint since i started using it , be interesting to see if using it the old way works. I’d better order up some of the oliegrung for future work. Fortunate its all been used on work for me and not others.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeFeb 10th 2021
    Just looked up my old orders , its changed name, used to be called “Demidekk ultimate windows and dooors” now its “Demidekk ultimate window system”. More reading to be done.Thanks for spotting it.
    Linseed oil paint from Ingilby arrived today. Really good to use so far. Will see what it dries like in the morning.

    Would you just paint the rebates then using glazing tape? Or do they need more treatment?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 14th 2021
    Yes, for me the bottom rebate needs to be drained and I would build in the ability for it to drain away any condensation or dew that might form on the inside safely away to outside.
    Now the frame has been put together, how would one add in an ability to drain away ?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 15th 2021
    Tiny 3 or 4mm non biodegradable blocks or packers under the bottom glazing bead,

    I always drilled holes down through the glass rebate leading to outside for wooden windows

    If you have a chamfer or fall on the glass rebate that will help and holes non critical so long as water can get out

    Drained glazing is what we want
    There's no chamfer on the rebate, I guess I should have specified this.

    The beading is chamfered however... I guess a few mm packers will help then. No way to really get a chamfer in now....

    Next thing is joining the hardwood sill to the softwood frames. Wood glue and screw? linseed putty as a thin bead and then screwed? Both painted already...
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 15th 2021
    Screw and glue sill to frame, I would use foaming wood glue, no setting mastic also possible.

    Glass can be puttied or butyl masticced in and top and both sides glazing beads the same and screwed

    Bottom bead I would set on packers seal to glass with silicone or polysulphide sealant hope to stop water going in the top and to let any that gets in out again
    Can I use foaming glue now it's been linseed oil painted bottom of frame and sill?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 15th 2021
    Basically a gap filler - so yes
    Sorry for all the questions. Almost there now

    Just asking the front edge or all along the joint? I've found it indeed foams and only need a little

    As for fixing the frames which will be going in Wednesday, we intend to fix the sides straight into the brickwork with typical window fixing screws through the timber on the internal side as the frame was made snug. What are the most standard size fixings going into brick.

    Fixing brackets look good as that would give 2 fixings either side of the cavity should one fail

    The top of the frame is about 6" away from a timber lintel (9x3) so I'm thinking L brackets or rather some kind of U bracket.... These frames being 2.2m X 2m in 4x3 timber and glass are very heavy so I need to be sure. What fixings would you use here?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 16th 2021
    Full joint fill, and tiny amount with the glue

    I would use screws and plugs into masonry 50 or 55mm into solid, if bricks are vert brittle then go 80mm into mortar beds but aim for centre straps old No 10 screws 40mm to wood, 50mm to masonry

    I would block down off the wood lintel and use flat straps to restrain top
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