Green Building Forum - AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited Mon, 15 Jun 2026 10:25:11 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20176#Comment_20176 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20176#Comment_20176 Wed, 07 May 2008 21:36:08 +0100 fostertom -------------
A Zero-Fuel project in Mid Devon

A pioneering demonstration that will attract much publicity.

Techniques that could take most of UK's building stock 'off-grid' for heating ventilating and cooling - houses, flats, offices, factories .....

This 1980s bungalow is ideal for uprating by the AGS approach.
AGS is ANNUALISED GEO-SOLAR - download www.greenershelter.org/TokyoPaper.pdf for a simple explanation of the principles and how it's done.

AGS buildings collect plentiful summer sun heat and store it in several metres of dry subsoil below and around the building - enough, when retrieved, to provide the entire winter's heating. Zero bought-in heating fuel is needed, therefore zero Carbon dioxide is produced.

Other inter-seasonal heat storage methods are expensive, hi-tech and yet struggle to retain a full winter's worth of heat, and so require fuel from Jan/Feb on.

AGS (Annualised Geo-Solar) subsoil storage easily retains the full winter's heat requirement, by low-tech, near-passive means. As a gentle, steady process, an AGS building takes 2 or 3 years to fully charge its subsoil with stored heat; thereafter performance improves year on year. Subsoil effectively provides its own heat-retaining insulation around the storage zone.

AGS collects summer sun heat by a variety of means, as suits the individual building. There may be solar panels, but principally the building itself collects sun heat through big windows, and is arranged to conduct that heat away to subsoil storage, so avoiding the usual overheating. Consequently AGS buildings often have large windows, by current standards - but nevertheless use zero fuel and produce zero Carbon dioxide.

AGS buildings are insulated and airtight to the highest standard, well beyond current Building Regulations requirements.

The technical details are being fine-tuned by computer simulation, using EDSL Tas dynamic thermal modelling software - visit www.edsl.zenwebhosting.com.
Its performance will be verified by simulating its summer sun heat intake and its winter heat losses through the course of years of actual weather data.
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As we move into that fine-tuning, and working drawings, I shall no doubt be putting many questions and requests for advice, insights and expertise to this forum. I'll appreciate all feedback.]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20182#Comment_20182 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20182#Comment_20182 Wed, 07 May 2008 22:32:52 +0100 tony AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20186#Comment_20186 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20186#Comment_20186 Wed, 07 May 2008 23:27:32 +0100 fostertom AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20197#Comment_20197 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20197#Comment_20197 Thu, 08 May 2008 09:08:55 +0100 Jeff Norton (NZ)
It is good to see the plain logic of AGS, how can they argue with computer with simulation?

Tony, don't forget high standard glazing are one way valve to a house they give a large net energy gain every year!]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20215#Comment_20215 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20215#Comment_20215 Thu, 08 May 2008 13:12:11 +0100 fostertom AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20262#Comment_20262 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20262#Comment_20262 Thu, 08 May 2008 23:22:52 +0100 Mike George Posted By: Jeff Norton (NZ)Outstanding fostertom!

It is good to see the plain logic of AGS, how can they argue with computer with simulation?

Hopefully they won't be able to- as Tom says this is a pioneering design in the UK- watch this space!]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20966#Comment_20966 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20966#Comment_20966 Mon, 19 May 2008 06:21:56 +0100 Benj AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20968#Comment_20968 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20968#Comment_20968 Mon, 19 May 2008 07:35:51 +0100 Mike George AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20991#Comment_20991 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20991#Comment_20991 Mon, 19 May 2008 09:34:06 +0100 stephendv Posted By: fostertom
AGS (Annualised Geo-Solar) subsoil storage easily retains the full winter's heat requirement, by low-tech, near-passive means. As a gentle, steady process, an AGS building takes 2 or 3 years to fully charge its subsoil with stored heat; thereafter performance improves year on year. Subsoil effectively provides its own heat-retaining insulation around the storage zone.

Doesn't storing the heat year round present overheating problems during the summer? I could understand that AGS would work fine in both summer and winter if the heat storage was precisely at opposite phase to the seasons - store the heat in summer and wait for it to arrive at the building in winter. And don't store anything in winter so that you don't have heat arriving in summer. But this seems to suggest that the heat will be stored year round?

Posted By: fostertom
AGS collects summer sun heat by a variety of means, as suits the individual building. There may be solar panels, but principally the building itself collects sun heat through big windows, and is arranged to conduct that heat away to subsoil storage, so avoiding the usual overheating.

Letting the summer sun into the building in summer seems counterintuitive. Surely using a solar collector would be better?]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20995#Comment_20995 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=20995#Comment_20995 Mon, 19 May 2008 11:21:11 +0100 fostertom Posted By: stephendvI could understand that AGS would work fine in both summer and winter if the heat storage was precisely at opposite phase to the seasons - store the heat in summer and wait for it to arrive at the building in winterCorrect
Posted By: stephendvthis seems to suggest that the heat will be stored year round
Correct
Posted By: stephendvLetting the summer sun into the building in summer seems counterintuitive
Any E/S/W facing 2G or 3G window that isn't shaded by surrounding obstructions, or by the building itself, is a year-round nett heat gainer - so bigger windows the better, it would seem. Problem has always been that the gain's in the summer, when you don't want it, and the loss is in the winter, when there's little gain available. The equation has only really been useful in Spring and Autumn, when there's some solar gain potential plus some loss, both alternating within a small timeframe, within the building's time-capacity to store heat. The worthwhile effect has been to knock say a month off both ends of the fuelled heating season - but has not helped at all in either high summer or deep winter. AGS (or whatever we call its further evolution, currently under development) gets round this frustrating conundrum, by capturing summer solar heat as it lands on the interior surfaces of the rooms that have the windows that the sun's pouring through, taking it away to storage as it arrives, thus preventing over-heat buildup in the rooms. That heat, 'injected' into the subsoil at a calculated depth and/or distance away, then migrates slowly back to the surface (the bit of the surface that we call 'floorslab') at a calculated rate, just in time for winter.
Posted By: stephendvSurely using a solar collector would be better?
That either as well as, or instead of, or not at all - the toolkit varies depending on the individual building.]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21121#Comment_21121 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21121#Comment_21121 Tue, 20 May 2008 04:17:20 +0100 Terry so how is it 'taken away to storage as it arrives' and 'injected' ???

I can see that the calculated depth etc will hopefully avoid the heat escaping at night in the summer, but will this not involve a lot of digging or drilling to get it down there. You are also then reliant on getting the calcs right to get the timing right with no control at all. Would it not be simpler to store it under subfloor insulation closer to the surface and then control the release as it is needed ????]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21124#Comment_21124 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21124#Comment_21124 Tue, 20 May 2008 07:41:44 +0100 Mike George Posted By: Terrymmmm......
so how is it 'taken away to storage as it arrives' and 'injected' ???


Hi Terry, This can be done by various means, and is part of what is new and different about method- will hopefully reveal all soon.

Calcs will be done using Dynamic Simulation Software]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21129#Comment_21129 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21129#Comment_21129 Tue, 20 May 2008 08:42:38 +0100 fostertom Posted By: TerryWould it not be simpler to store it under subfloor insulation closer to the surface and then control the release as it is needed ????That is one of the options, but an unnecessarily crude one, which misses out on opportunities for neater performance. It's akin to the 'big tank of water' approach to storage (except the tank's full of soil) which has so far proved expensive, leaky of stored heat, and requiring lots of plumbing, valves, pumps etc and fuel to run same. It's possible to minimise the latter, get semi-passive operation, and possibly even a nett surplus of captured heat, if only there was an easy way to turn that into electricity to sell back to the grid!]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21130#Comment_21130 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21130#Comment_21130 Tue, 20 May 2008 08:53:50 +0100 Benj AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21139#Comment_21139 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21139#Comment_21139 Tue, 20 May 2008 10:00:37 +0100 fostertom Posted By: Benjmaking it airtight/super insulatedNot difficult!
Posted By: BenjWhy is this particular building ideal for AGS?
Orientation, sun exposure, garden space around, 1985 bungallow so straightforward modernish construction in good condition, built just at the last moment before under slab insulation and cavity fill came in, well drained non-clay deep subsoil.]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21143#Comment_21143 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21143#Comment_21143 Tue, 20 May 2008 10:20:57 +0100 Benj AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21147#Comment_21147 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21147#Comment_21147 Tue, 20 May 2008 10:31:28 +0100 StuartB
1. Doesn't the ground/subsoil around the house for a a good few metres need to be kept bone dry to store the heat effectively? Will this involve large amounts excavation/moving outbuildings/paths etc and laying some kind of waterproof membrane?

2. What do the internal surfaces need be to collect and transfer the heat for storage? Will wood suffice?

3. Sounds very similar to PAHS, is this the same thing?]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21148#Comment_21148 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21148#Comment_21148 Tue, 20 May 2008 11:11:31 +0100 fostertom Posted By: BenjSounds very site specific indeed. Is it really going to be relevant to most of the UK's building stock ?Just makes it easy this time - techniques and products will make it very widely - might say universally - applicable, in different forms. It's just a principle, an understanding - many ways it could be applied.

Posted By: StuartBDoesn't the ground/subsoil around the house for a a good few metres need to be kept bone dry to store the heat effectively?
To handle this at minimum cost and disturbance is key, which we're working on now - very interesting.
Posted By: StuartBWhat do the internal surfaces need be to collect and transfer the heat for storage?
Ditto
Posted By: StuartBSounds very similar to PAHS, is this the same thing?
PAS evolved out of PAHS and it looks like we're evolving it further. Unfortunately can't get any response or contact out of the PAHS or AGS guys, other than what's freely published. Anyone know why, know them, or know how to approach?]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21209#Comment_21209 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21209#Comment_21209 Tue, 20 May 2008 19:59:35 +0100 chuckey What I was thinking about was to bore 4" diam holes from 1m out from the house walls pointing inwards so at a depth of say 7m they are terminate 2m inside the houses foundations. Now you install a concentric water pipe. 4" outer copper pipe then a 3" plastic pipe with a 22mm plastic pipe inside that, filling this gap with foam. The 4" pipe has its end sealed and is stuffed into your bored hole. Pumping the excess hot water down the centre pipe to the bottom of the hole, the water returning via the gap between the 4" Cu and 3" plastic pipe. Now your excess hot water is warming the soil under your house.
The reason for using pumped water is that the warm subsoil will not loose heat directly back into space if the water is turned off.
The meditteraneum church effect, causes the suns heat to be conducted into the ground during the day but also allows the heat to escape at night.
The marginal cost of my system over a solar water heating set up, would be boring the hole, bit of specialized pipe and an extra panel, say £4k. The outcome would be zero heating bills. Sounds a better deal then GSHP.
Any comments?
Frank]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21213#Comment_21213 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21213#Comment_21213 Tue, 20 May 2008 20:39:04 +0100 joe.e AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21219#Comment_21219 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21219#Comment_21219 Tue, 20 May 2008 21:20:29 +0100 fostertom Posted By: chuckeyThe reason for using pumped water is that the warm subsoil will not loose heat directly back into space if the water is turned off.What's
Posted By: chuckeyThe meditteraneum church effect, causes the suns heat to be conducted into the ground during the day but also allows the heat to escape at night.
]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21222#Comment_21222 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21222#Comment_21222 Tue, 20 May 2008 21:29:32 +0100 fostertom Posted By: joe.ewould a system like this be viable in an area with lots of huge stones quite close to the surface?Hm, depends how you're going to put your heat into the ground - buried air or water pipes or what? How huge? Shouldn't deter a big excavator. Dense 'plums' like that should increase your soil's volume-based specific heat capacity (how much heat the soil can store per unit volume) - but not all that much, because higher density generally results in lower mass-based specific heat capacity (how much heat the soil can store per unit mass). Or are the stones actually packed together, small stuff in the gaps? Does water flow through it or is it almost dry because water just drops through?]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21241#Comment_21241 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21241#Comment_21241 Tue, 20 May 2008 23:55:07 +0100 Jeff Norton (NZ)
A good driver of a dynamic simulation software package (& with a copy of a Rawlings price guide) should be able to design a house for every location with minimal heating.

Chuckey's sounds like a good option too.]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21249#Comment_21249 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21249#Comment_21249 Wed, 21 May 2008 09:07:17 +0100 joe.e Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: joe.ewould a system like this be viable in an area with lots of huge stones quite close to the surface?
Hm, depends how you're going to put your heat into the ground - buried air or water pipes or what? How huge? Shouldn't deter a big excavator. Dense 'plums' like that should increase your soil's volume-based specific heat capacity (how much heat the soil can store per unit volume) - but not all that much, because higher density generally results in lower mass-based specific heat capacity (how much heat the soil can store per unit mass). Or are the stones actually packed together, small stuff in the gaps? Does water flow through it or is it almost dry because water just drops through?
I don't know how heat would be put into the ground - I hadn't given the system any consideration until I read this thread. But it would be a new build, so I could dig out before starting. I haven't dug the exact site, but elsewhere on the land there's a foot or two of topsoil, then fairly dry subsoil with chunks floating in it that vary from as big as a TV to as big as an armchair.
The building will have about 11m x 5.5m of south-facing roof; I'm thinking water to heat the soil. I suppose the question is, how many pipes and how deep? If not too many, I should be able to thread them between the bigger rocks and dig out the smaller ones where necessary.]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21308#Comment_21308 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21308#Comment_21308 Wed, 21 May 2008 13:25:43 +0100 Benj
If modifying an existing building to be super insulated and airtight is "easily done " then why am I finding it a nightmare to specify a brand new building which will be the same.
Would you just wrap the whole thing in celotex?]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21317#Comment_21317 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21317#Comment_21317 Wed, 21 May 2008 14:47:04 +0100 fostertom AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21319#Comment_21319 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21319#Comment_21319 Wed, 21 May 2008 14:54:59 +0100 Benj Seems to me all of the technologies discussed here have their advocates and non believers. Just when I think ive got the design sorted I read another post which swings me in the opposite direction.
Are there any proven Passivhaus standard multifoil insulated buildings ?]]> AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21327#Comment_21327 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21327#Comment_21327 Wed, 21 May 2008 15:35:57 +0100 fostertom AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21336#Comment_21336 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21336#Comment_21336 Wed, 21 May 2008 16:40:27 +0100 tony AGS inter-seasonal storage project - Planning Permission awaited https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21348#Comment_21348 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1695&Focus=21348#Comment_21348 Wed, 21 May 2008 17:25:17 +0100 stephendv http://www.arthaonline.com/Word%20Files/Ramlow_SolarToday_ND07.pdf]]>