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General: Smart meters (again)

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    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2021
     
    What ho one and all,

    My energy supplier is pressurising me with e-mails, to get smart meters installed. They say that they will now accept switching, etc, and tick all the whizzy bangy boxes.

    But I don't want or feel the need to have one. Is it compulsory that I will have to accept at some point in the future or can I just continue with my existing ones? They are not old as they were installed with the house ten year ago.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2021
     
    No there is no obligation to have a smart meter. Just say no and ask them to stop bothering you.
  3.  
    There's no obligation on you to have a smart meter, or a mobile phone, broadband, a TV, a bank account or even running water.

    They're just things that were invented to make life a little easier, but there's no compulsion.

    A smart meter might eventually be needed if you want to have an electric car charger, because if everyone plugs in at once the neighbourhood will be blacked out, but there's no compulsion to have a charger, or even to have a car, and that's some way off.

    People without smart meters will eventually find they cannot access the cheapest electricity tariffs, but again that's not compulsory and some way off.

    Genuine question, what is it you are finding off-putting about a smart meter? Is it that you don't feel they are trustworthy, or that it feels like someone is imposing something on you rather than your choice? You know that they don't cost you anything, I'm sure.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen
    A smart meter might eventually be needed if you want to have an electric car charger, because if everyone plugs in at once the neighbourhood will be blacked out, but there's no compulsion to have a charger, or even to have a car, and that's some way off.


    Current generation of 'smart' meters dont offer any control over charging/consumption or indication of grid capacity.....do they?? As I understand it thats some way off and would need a 'smarter' meter??
  5.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenA smart meter might eventually be needed if you want to have an electric car charger, because if everyone plugs in at once the neighbourhood will be blacked out, but there's no compulsion to have a charger, or even to have a car, and that's some way off.

    As far as I know there is no reason you can't charge your car from a 13A socket, the same as running your immersion heater for your DHW (or any other high current electrical device) there is no control about when you can use the power.
    With the push towards electricity use away from fossil fuels, especially as the grid becomes greener something will need to be done about the grid. I'm left wondering if 'they' will wait until the grid falls over or will pre-emptive action be taken by compulsion to either manage the gross load anyone can take or by rationing by time, either way I don't think it will be popular. The real fix would have to be a major upgrade of the grid - but that will need a bit of funding.........
    • CommentAuthorFred56
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    We have one of the early smart meters and it isn’t smart. I have to read and report the reading every month. We also had smart meters for electric and gas back in 2012. The gas one never worked properly and stopped completely in the first year. The electric one had only one useful feature that we only got by talking to the installer. He set it so it would show our PV export. That was handy but the rest was a waste of time. I was still asked for meter readings and the PV generation was audited occasionally too. Someone came to the house to do that bit. We are smart enough not to waste electricity and don’t need a meter to tell us what to do.
    Smart meters are merely the enabling technology to introduce demand based pricing. Some people support that and some people see the dangers for the economically impoverished. Have there been problems in Texas recently about peak demand pricing and did I read something about Ontario a few years ago?
  7.  
    Indeed, there's nothing to stop anyone charging an EV with a normal plug socket, it's low power and takes a long time so not much risk of blacking out the neighbours.

    In the medium term, people will want faster chargers (5kW+) that charge at the cheapest times. You'll get the cheapest charging if you charge when nobody else is charging, so protecting the grid from crashing. But to pay cheaper rates based on the time you charge, you will need a time-of-use meter, either your current smart meter or one built into the charger. The charger will be smart to talk to the car and the supplier and work out how much to charge and when, you just plug it in and let it get on with it.

    Govt published a consultation on how much to do this with carrots (cheap charge) and how much with sticks (remotely switch off car chargers if the grid is about to collapse).
    They say chargers will need to be interoperable so that you don't get locked into one electricity supplier, and they need to be cyber secure, both issues already tackled with the SMETS2 meters.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/817107/electric-vehicle-smart-charging.pdf
    "Government took powers under the Automated and
    Electric Vehicles (AEV) Act 2018 to require new chargepoints to be smart.
    ...
    based on existing evidence, the current lead option .. is to use the smart
    meter system. Other options will continue to be considered "
    • CommentAuthorgeuben
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    Ofgem requires energy companies to offer a certain number of smart meters per year. They don't require you to accept and have one.

    Some suppliers are still offering There older SMETS1 kind that often stop being smart when you switch providers so make sure you're getting a SMETS2 meter if you do accept.

    Benefits:

    You don't have to read your meter to get accurate bills.
    They can be reconfigured to have multiple "registers", so you could switch to an economy 7 tariff for example without needing a new meter installed.
    More visibility of how and when you use energy (although the data most providers give you access to is a bit limited)

    Cons:
    How much of a conspiracy theorists are you?

    The biggest non wackjob objection to smart meters stems from horror stories about bad installs, faulty meters, missed appointments.

    To me, those aren't smart meter problems. They could happen with any type of meter. It so happens that the only time people really experience having their meters exchanged is when they are getting a smart meter!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    You'll need a new meter in the next 10 years anyway. At that point I doubt you'll get a choice:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electricity-meter-certification
  10.  
    Hi Gueben, Fred, if you have a SMETS1 meter that hasn't already been upgraded ('enrolled') then it should happen in the next few months, check the link for your model of meter.

    https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/smets1-dcc-communication-update-faq-diy-tutorial-series-8899

    There are 7million SMETS1s of which over half have been 'enrolled' so far.

    Last time I looked, new SMETS1 installs have pretty much stopped now, <5% of new installs vs 85% SMETS2, and the rest are dumb meters.

    https://www.elexon.co.uk/data/smart-meter-technical-detail-report/

    We thought we were pretty careful with energy, but we were pleasantly surprised when we got a smart meter that we identified about 10% of savings. If/when we get an electric car we expect to save more on a smart tariff.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    Smart meters are not available in my area, and I'm not exactly in the middle of nowhere.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: philedgeCurrent generation of 'smart' meters dont offer any control over charging/consumption or indication of grid capacity.....do they?? As I understand it thats some way off and would need a 'smarter' meter??

    That's not quite right. Smart meters don't directly control things. Instead there are devices called HAN Connected Auxiliary Load Control Switches (HCALCS) that connect to the same local area network as the meter and the IHD. Meters are required to support up to five HCALCS, I believe. So a smart charger has an HCALCS as part of it and that is controlled by the metering system. I don't know what is commercially available today.

    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryAs far as I know there is no reason you can't charge your car from a 13A socket, the same as running your immersion heater for your DHW

    There's no reason at present why you can't charge an EV from a 13A socket but it seems quite likely that there might be a law/regulation to prevent it sometime in the future. As regards an immersion heater, it is extremely unwise to try to run a 3 kW immersion heater from a 13A socket. The sockets are known to weld in the 'on' state far too often. Normal practice is to use a 20A switched fused spur and a separate radial feed would be required on any new installation I think because of diversity calcs.

    Posted By: Ed DaviesYou'll need a new meter in the next 10 years anyway.

    I hope not. Mine is certified for 20 years. But even if it is 10 years, smart meters will have moved on in another five years :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: djhI hope not. Mine is certified for 20 years.
    Yeah, but the OP's meter is already 10 years old.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: djhSmart meters don't directly control things.


    Thats what I was saying/querying. AFAIK current smart meters dont/cant manage household load to stop too many EV chargers blacking out a neighbourhood. A smarter meter would be needed
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    As far as I am aware for accuracy reasons the conventional meters had to be changed every 10 years. My supplier a few years ago said ours had to be changed for a smart meter I refused saying they could fit a conventional non smart meter. They pestered me for a while and 10 year later (meter 20 yrs old) I have requested a swop and had it done for a SMETS 2 a month ago. This is so I can export PV generation once installed and charge an EV when I get one a cheap tariff.
    So if you are happy to go without a smart meter it is your right. you cannot be forced to have one.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: philedge
    Posted By: djhSmart meters don't directly control things.


    Thats what I was saying/querying. AFAIK current smart meters dont/cant manage household load to stop too many EV chargers blacking out a neighbourhood. A smarter meter would be needed

    As I said:
    Posted By: djhMeters are required to support up to five HCALCS, I believe.

    So AFAIK, yes existing meters can support the functionality, so no change of meter is required. Whether or not such a facility is commercially available yet I do not know, as I also said.
  17.  
    As I mentioned the government published a consultation about linking car chargers up to smart meters, how best to do it, and whether it would be better just to bribe people with cheaper electric so they don't all plug in at 5pm.

    They apparently are waiting for a British Standard to be published that will specify technical details of how chargers should connect to smart meters. EG should the charger include a switch (ALCS) that talks to the household's existing smart meter to control when it can charge, should several switches control high/med/low rates, what to do if the charger isn't located in range of the smart meter, or if the house doesn't have one yet, etc

    Once that standard is available, they will make a regulation that all new car chargers must conform to the standard. There'll presumably be consultations on the regulation, transition periods, etc

    https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/EV+Smart+Charging+%7C+Energy+Smart+Appliances+Standards+23072020162500?open
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenOnce that standard is available, they will make a regulation that all new car chargers must conform to the standard. There'll presumably be consultations on the regulation, transition periods, etc


    That might be a good reason to install one before the new standard comes in.

    There has been talk of allowing the grid to discharge your car as well. That's an interesting idea as long as it doesn't degrade the life of your battery.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2021
     
    Had smart meter fitted 5 weeks ago. It was reckoned auto reads would be up and running within 2 weeks. Have today been requested to provide a manual read. So much for being smart.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2021
     
    I have told my energy supplier that I don't need a smart meter because we already have an auto reader on the premises i.e. me.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 19th 2021
     
    Complained about having to read the new meter got reply told they need to send someone to commission the meter. Puzzled why (a) the installer could not have done it .(b) If not his job why wait for customer to complain to get it done.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2021 edited
     
    My "smart" meters fitted five weeks ago.

    The "In Home Display" does not (yet) show any energy usage figures.

    The only benefit so far is that I can now access a set of Daily Use Graphs on the Octopus website - Electricity only !

    No info available from the Gas meter. ( Manual reads only at the moment. )

    Despite this dismal performance, I have managed knock down my electricity use by approx 20% . . . Daily use consistently under 2kWh per day.

    Octopus hope to fix ( it all ) . . . . . . . eventually . . . . .
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2021 edited
     
    ""Despite this dismal performance, I have managed knock down my electricity use by approx 20% . . . Daily use consistently under 2kWh per day."

    2 kW that is remarkable presume you use the gas for cooking and heating.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2021 edited
     
    Deleted . . second thoughts !!
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 23rd 2021
     
    How does one access daily use graphs on the octopus website as I cannot find it.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2021
     
    Found it, very impressed can tell when kettle on for a brew. Can even distinguish between me putting kettle on my wife. I measure water in ( sad I know but every bit helps) she just fills it to what looks right which is usually too much.
    • CommentAuthorCliff Pope
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2021
     
    If in the glorious future the smart meter is going to be smart enough to turn off your EV charger because all your neighbours are doing the same, then surely you will never be able to rely on your car being charged up when you need it?
    It will be like someone having syphoned all your petrol or let your tyres down when you need to go to work.
  28.  
    Well, that wouldn't be very smart would it? Wouldn't be good for encouraging uptake of electric cars!

    The 'smart' bit is that it will turn everyone's car charger up and down according to the spare capacity in the system, so that everyone gets their car charged at the cheapest possible price, without needing to dig bigger cables down every street and without tripping everyone else's lights out.

    There is plenty of unused capacity in the distribution system at 2am to charge up everyone's car, so you can 100% rely on it being charged up by next morning. If you do run it flat and want to draw 7kW to recharge it at 5pm, then you should still be able to do that, but expect to pick up the extra costs that will be incurred in making that possible for you.

    If, however, everyone in your street tried to charge up both their cars at teatime through their existing dumb-meters, the resulting blackout would be like someone having stolen all your lightbulbs and your cooker fridge and TV....

    Edit to add: nobody should be obliged to have a car charger, there will have to be a big public network for people who don't have off-street parking.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen

    There is plenty of unused capacity in the distribution system at 2am to charge up everyone's car, so you can 100% rely on it being charged up by next morning.


    Have you got a source to support that? Im very much an EV sceptic and I struggle to comprehend how that would be possible, from green power. Bearing in mind that as well as 30 million cars therell be buses, ambulances, police cars, heat pumps, all manner of essential delivery vehicles etc etc all wanting the same green power over night.
  30.  
    ... duplicate post

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