Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    I hear reliably that Hinkley B will cease to generate electricity next year and Hunterston B the end of this year. With Hinkley C not expected online for another 5/10 years will this mean the UKs shortfall will be met by the firing up the older coal and gas fired station currently only used as small stop gap fillers?
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
     
    Maybe a touch but they are already shut down a lot of the time and barred from running at full capacity due to numerous cracks in the graphite within the core.

    e.g. at the moment only 1/4 of the reactors in these two plants is not under shutdown

    https://www.edfenergy.com/energy/power-station/daily-statuses
  1.  
    https://www.rystadenergy.com/newsevents/news/press-releases/uks-renewable-energy-capacity-set-to-double-by-2026-when-offshore-wind-will-overtake-onshore/

    UK set to build 30GW of extra renewable generation capacity between 2020 and 2026, and 50GW by 2030. Hinkley C will be 3GW.

    But the wind doesn't always blow. My opinion is that the supply, carbon intensity and price of electricity will become a lot more variable, depending on the weather. But I know nothing special about this, otherwise I wouldn't be here!
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
     
    The Government expects that the shortfall will be made up by additional renewables & net imports from other countries over the electrical interconnectors (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/931323/updated-energy-and-emissions-projections-2019.pdf)

    What will make it interesting is that energy imports are projected to rise significantly over the next couple of decades, and the current deal with the EU expires on 30 June 2026. That's the exact same day that the UK-EU fisheries deal expires. As that doesn't leave much time revise the generating strategy, I suspect that the UK may have to choose energy imports over fish.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Posted By: an02ewwill this mean the UKs shortfall will be met by the firing up the older coal and gas fired station currently only used as small stop gap fillers?

    Graph in the gov forecast linked to above says gas yes, coal no, together with increased renewables and imports. Ive no idea how the imports are made up but definitely a ramp up in UK gas generation.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    Hinkley C and any others that don't get cancelled will guarantee that UK will never have cheap electricity, however lo-cost/on every window pane solar gets. The stratospheric guaranteed price that the nukes will receive for their output 'forever' will keep the retail price of the total electicity mix up at traditional levels.

    There will be every incentive for small local self-sufficient generation co-ops independent of the grid. The politically unmentionalable horror of occasional power outages, which has driven the nuclear strategy, will be found to be quite tolerable when seen as the 'cost' of super-cheap plentiful local co-op electricity for those who can organise it.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    A few weeks ago Lord Deben on C4 news stated how he was looking forward to the installation of his heat pump and also stated that the price of electricity would continue to fall. This was only a few days after I received notification my electricity was going up by 10% but my natural gas was going down by 9% except I am not on it.
    I did write to the committee but got no reply. A few days later I did here a report on the radio of a comment attributed to Baroness Brown of the same committee that we would always be reliant on gas. I have not been able to confirm this but in searching did find she was stepping down from her post as deputy to Lord Debden and retaining membership of the committee whilst taking up a board position with Energy company Orsted. (Jobs for the boys?)( Lord Deben is if you recall John Gummer former MP who famously fed a beef burger to his 4 year old daughter during the BSE crisis)
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    I hear a whisper that it’s not just Hinkley and hunterston that are closing but a staged closure of several more power stations, which will mean the reliance on heavy co2 generated power. Makes me think we should have built the replacements a lot earlier.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Posted By: revorA few days later I did here a report on the radio of a comment attributed to Baroness Brown of the same committee that we would always be reliant on gas. I have not been able to confirm this


    If you have look at the government forecasts linked to above, they are predicting a large reliance on gas with domestic use of gas, oil and solid fuel actually increasing slightly from now until 2040
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    Posted By: an02ewI hear a whisper that it’s not just Hinkley and hunterston that are closing but a staged closure of several more power stations, which will mean the reliance on heavy co2 generated power. Makes me think we should have built the replacements a lot earlier.


    Is that on top of the half expected already planned to shut down before 2025?
    https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-t-z/united-kingdom.aspx
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    No, thats it.
    Its an interesting document and leads me to believe that as our demand for electric increases over the next 10 years and nuclear power stations reduce, we will have to fire up the old coal and gas stations, and to add more CO2, that fuel will be imported.

    I only started the OP because a freind recently said that we need to reduce the number of WBS and move over to electric heating, because of CO2 release when logs are burnt.maybe this is a food for a different post?
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Posted By: an02ewNo, thats it.
    Its an interesting document and leads me to believe that as our demand for electric increases over the next 10 years and nuclear power stations reduce, we will have to fire up the old coal and gas stations, and to add more CO2, that fuel will be imported.


    Theres a graph in the gov forecast that shows the breakdown of electric generation fuel types and I dont think coal is used, gas and imports yes. Nuclear is up and down for a few years but ramps up towards 2040 so we know what the policy is. I guess an element of imports will be nuclear to??

    I think the main driver to avoid WBS (and promote EVs) is for human health reasons in urban areas, rather than making significant savings on co2 emmissions.
  2.  
    Rather striking stats from yesterday, a sunny windy but cold bank holiday

    At 3pm, grid intensity fell to 24g/kWh !!

    UK generation mix at 3pm 5th April

    Wind: 48%
    Solar: 21%
    Nuclear: 14%
    Gas: 7%

    Data from https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard


    Edit for comparison: one month earlier, 5th March, was calm weather, grid intensity 270g/kWh, coal power making up for lack of wind
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen

    UK generation mix at 3pm 5th April

    Wind: 48%
    Solar: 21%
    Nuclear: 14%
    Gas: 7%


    Im not sure how accurate online stats are or if the figures above are the best snapshot on a good day but Gridwatch report a 3PM hourly average of
    Wind 39.3%
    Solar 19.5%
    Nuclear 15.9%
    Gas 11.8%
    I know generation from some sources can vary pretty quickly but nuclear is usually pretty much a flat line so why theres a 2% difference in a snapshot and the hour average is strange.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: philedgeIm not sure how accurate online stats are or if the figures above are the best snapshot on a good day but Gridwatch report
    From the hover text on Gridwatch's wind meter:

    This is the total contributed by metered wind farms. Wind power contributes about another 30% from embedded (or unmetered) wind turbines that shows only as a drop in demand.
    I'd imagine that the difference comes from the source WiA is quoting using an estimate of the unmetered wind contribution which will not only affect the wind (and similar solar) contribution but also the proportions of other sources via their effects on the estimate of total demand. In this context, unmetered means not metered in real time as seen by the grid controllers - obviously they're metered for billing purposes.

    It's not just microgeneration (< 50 kW) which is considered unmetered. For example, I read that the Burn of Whilk [¹] windfarm near my house site (9 x 2.5 MW turbines) is not metered in this sense.

    [¹] https://www.thewindpower.net/windfarm_en_22024_burn-of-whilk.php
  3.  
    https://reports.electricinsights.co.uk/methodology/

    Wot Ed said.

    Solar, and 9x2.5MW wind farms, will be 'embedded' in the regional 'distribution' networks, which are operated by different people than the 'transmission' national grid. That makes it hard for the transmission grid operator to monitor and manage the wind and solar generation, and balance the grid.

    The link above explains how the grid has to be balanced by guessing how much wind power is online, by looking at how the fossil demand dips whenever the wind blows, which doesn't seem very 21st century. There was talk about commercial smart meters being used to give the grid operator some real measurements of embedded wind and solar, at least half-hourly in arrears.

    Edit to add: several news outlets are reporting that Monday was the lowest grid intensity ever recorded, entertainingly they all quote different figures for just how low it was...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTime4 days ago edited
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesBurn of Whilk
    Sounds like an obscure traditional bio-fuel resource!
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen
    Edit to add: several news outlets are reporting that Monday was the lowest grid intensity ever recorded, entertainingly they all quote different figures for just how low it was...


    The beeb is one of them https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56657299

    Rather worryingly the article reports-the director of the national grid operator is aiming to be generating carbon free by 2025 and the government aims to have "almost all" generation carbon free by 2030. The BEIS forecast linked to above shows us having 19% gas generation in 2030. Maybe their expecting to have widespread gas generation carbon capture by 2025, but that sounds ambitious.

    Hope someones got a grip on things!
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: philedgeRather worryingly the article reports-the director of the national grid operator is aiming to be generating carbon free by 2025


    he says '...our ambition of being able to operate the system carbon free by 2025'

    it's not quite clear what he means by that but I interpret it to mean that 'they hope to be able to operate for periods of time carbon free by 2025'
    • CommentAuthorHollyBush
    • CommentTime4 days ago edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenby guessing how much wind power is online, by looking at how the fossil demand dips whenever the wind blows, which doesn't seem very 21st century


    There are predictions based on weather (wind) forecasts, though these are not used used much, and at best will be able to predict few days out - however that is enough time to bring other generation on line.

    In addition some DNOs are experimenting with realtime data from the embedded generators, with some data measured several times a minute

    National Grid transmission and operation each have an equivalent at SSEN in Scotland, which will contribute to the figures confusion. (sorry not sure about Northern Ireland)

    Along with the DNOs, National Grid and Offgem are investing significant sums on the network and how to manage with renewable generation, including flexible schemes that shift demand.

    Posted By: jms452...our ambition of being able to operate the system carbon free by 2025

    I believe there are difficulties in having a network made up of renewable sources only - maintaining a steady 50Hz is not as easy without the coal or gas turbines for example. So having a goal of being able to operate carbon free seems a good one, even if that is only under normal weather conditions. Planning for a windless, dark cloudy period will also be done, and I suspect that is where the 19% gas comes in. Which may push us back to the hydrogen discussion?
  4.  
    They do need the big rotating mass of gas turbine-generators to keep the frequency stable - if the grid load changes, the inertia of the turbine keeps everything stable. Solar panels cannot do this.

    They are trialing big flywheels to do the same job, so they could ditch the gas turbines
    https://www.powersystemsuk.co.uk/press/main-contractors-announced-for-uks-first-greener-grid-park/

    AIUI some of the hydro generators have massively heavy turbines, which they can spin in flywheel mode without water going through them, to provide the needed inertia.

    Obviously the costs of the flywheel services are additional to the price per kWh paid to the solar farm.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTime3 days ago
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: HollyBush</cite>I believe there are difficulties in having a network made up of renewable sources only - maintaining a steady 50Hz is not as easy without the coal or gas turbines</blockquote>

    Or nuclear? A relible source of low co2 electricity.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTime3 days ago
     
    just had a quick glance at https://grid.iamkate.com which reports that at 7.30 this morning 51% of our grid power is coming from gas power station from i assume imported gas. we must be more than 4 years or even 10 years away from co2 free grid power when we have nothing to fill the early morning gap on a windless day! this is the time when many factories start up, shops, builder murchants, etc.
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTime3 days ago
     
    Spinning turbines is the conventional simple way to stabilise the grid. But power electronics can do this, it just needs specifying. You need some bulk dc capacitance before the inverter, and a bit of clever software, then that will create a certain inertia. I don’t think you need batteries for this, just a few AC cycles of storage.
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/solar/how-rooftop-solar-can-stabilize-the-grid
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime3 days ago
     
    Posted By: an02ewwe must be more than 4 years or even 10 years away from co2 free grid power when we have nothing to fill the early morning gap on a windless day!


    From gov forecasts we'll be running 19% gas in 2030 and 13% in 2040.
  5.  
    13% gas in 2040 implies the grid intensity will be about 50g/kWh - a big improvement even on now (average ~200g/kWh) and a transformation from only a few years ago, when it was 500-600g/kWh (those numbers still used in SAP).

    Interesting link Rob, thanks, about using "smart PV inverters" to regulate the grid frequency. "German regulators ... mandated an inverter upgrade costing owners and installers approximately US $300 million." The anti-smartmeter folks would love rolling that one out! But maybe an extra revenue opportunity for V2G?
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press