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General: Warm roof, external insulation and timber cladding.

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthordereke
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2021
     
    I'm about to embark on a new porch and need some advice regarding external insulation and timber cladding.

    This is going to be on a solid floor.

    Timber frame (4x2")
    OSB
    Looking at 140-200mm of woodfibre/EPS insulation (found a deal on some cheap woodfibre)
    Breather membrane
    Vertical Battens
    Horizontal Cladding

    I've done something similar before but with much thinner insulation and I was able to hang the battens from the eaves as well as using some helical fasteners. That is not really going to be possible in this case. I have a pitched roof but a small amount of over hang - also warm roof. And I can't find fasteners long enough to do 200mm of insulation.

    Are there any resources out there with detailing for this kind of build up?
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2021
     
    Do you need some sort of firestop on the insulation, whether its eps or woodfibre?

    I made/making a lightweight porch for our house recently: concrete foundation inside XPS perimeter, timber frame resting on 150x150mm recycled plastic lumber, plywood. Then EPS outside screwed & glued, basecoat + mesh + render outside. Roof was to be tiles, but I ran out of matching tiles, and got concerned about quite how heavy the roof was going to be**, so instead swapped to solar panels + a few bits of aluminium angle to make watertight.

    Personally, I would add in a layer of basecoat onto the EPS/woodfibre, it'll do as rainscreen & it breathes but won't burn. It's about £10/bag to do 5m^2, easy diy job to trowel it on, especially if you can't see it afterwards!

    **A friend of mine had his porch sink:-(
  3.  
    Fixings for 200mm and above is definitely tricky as many of the build-ups have not been fire tested either (I realise this probably won't apply in your case).

    Have you tried looking at the 'mainstream' woodfibre manufacturers like Pavatex - they tend to sell a whole system build-up so will have a recommended third-party fixing.

    Failing that you could also try the fixing manufacturers themselves. Fischer and Ejot are two that I came across when looking for 400mm (!) fixings, but there are a few others.
  4.  
    • CommentAuthorjfb
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2021
     
    I've used screws like these before for a similar application - a bit expensive, but long

    https://www.tcfixings.co.uk/product/timco-wafer-head-index-screws-67mm-x-125mm-box-of-50/11889
    • CommentAuthorjfb
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2021
     
    Also I would personally be happier using EPS than woodfibre externally as it is more water resistant should anything go wrong.
    • CommentAuthordereke
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2021
     
    Posted By: RobLDo you need some sort of firestop on the insulation, whether its eps or woodfibre?


    Woodfibre is pretty fire resistant, just like regular wood it chars on the surface which insulates it and slows the process. At least that is what I understand!

    Posted By: WillInAberdeenSome ideas here

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16592" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16592


    Thanks this was quite helpful, I think I will just have to find a way to strategically embed some timber to fix to. It means a bit of cold bridging but not much in the grand scheme of things.

    Posted By: jfbI've used screws like these before for a similar application - a bit expensive, but long

    https://www.tcfixings.co.uk/product/timco-wafer-head-index-screws-67mm-x-125mm-box-of-50/11889" rel="nofollow" >https://www.tcfixings.co.uk/product/timco-wafer-head-index-screws-67mm-x-125mm-box-of-50/11889


    Nice thanks, I think this will form part of the solution.

    Posted By: jfbAlso I would personally be happier using EPS than woodfibre externally as it is more water resistant should anything go wrong.


    I've got blockwork around the base and I am going to use EPS on that, I've also got some left over PIR from my office which I'm going to use under the (solid) floor - I hope this is going to be OK.

    Thanks for all your comments that was really helpful.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2021
     
    The last time I looked into something like this, it was to try and find out what thickness insulation (in may case rigid board) can be fixed 'through' when using tile hanging on the outside.

    It looked like up to 70mm was the norm, but 100mm ought to be possible.

    That's using helical type fixings - some of the products/companies I looked at were:

    https://www.twistfix.co.uk/warm-roof-fixings-super-7

    https://www.helifix.co.uk/products/warm-roof-fixings/inskew/

    https://www.ancon.co.uk/whats-new/staifix-super-8-headed-helical-nail-for-flat-warm-roofs

    https://wallfast.co.uk/structural-fixings/116-tim-fix.html

    All of these are mainly advertised for warm pitched roof buildups, but in some cases it seems that they can be used in a vertical scenario, and it requires a call to their technical dept who might ask for full buildup details in order to give you a spec.

    140-200mm is thicker than what I was looking at - but on the other hand I imagine timber cladding is lighter than tiles. I'd be interested to know what you end up going with, and what advice you are given if you enquire about any of these helical fixings.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2021 edited
     
    > Fixings for 200mm and above is definitely tricky

    > I've used screws like these before for a similar application - a bit expensive, but long https://www.tcfixings.co.uk/product/timco-wafer-head-index-screws-67mm-x-125mm-box-of-50/11889

    They're 125mm? That's what I'd class as a standard length for a screw.. Going up to 300mm is fairly bread-n-butter standard for screwfix, by the way ...

    300mm £1.50 each:

    https://www.screwfix.com/p/timco-velocity-tx-countersunk-multi-use-screw-8-x-300mm-10-pack/3600x

    200mm 30p each:

    https://www.screwfix.com/p/turbogold-pz-double-countersunk-multipurpose-screws-6-x-200mm-50-pack/26293

    Get the welder out! :D
  10.  
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2021
     
    Posted By: Viking HouseAdjustable fixingshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZdGJ7aO5iA" rel="nofollow" >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZdGJ7aO5iA


    They won't work if you want to fix battens & cladding on the outside of the insulation though.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2022
     
    Dereke,

    I'm interested to know how you got on with this in the end - did you manage to find fixings that did the job?

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