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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Having only just heard about this development I have done a bit of "Google-ing" to find out a bit more about it. Leaving aside the more commercially biased websites (of which there are several), this article from OFTEC is interesting:

    https://www.oftec.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/uk-trials-signal-major-step-forward-for-renewable-liquid-heating-fuel-development

    It seems there are several companies who are trialing the use of this kerosene replacement. Using this fuel will apparently only require minor mods to existing oil boilers (change of nozzle and upping pressure). It all sounds a bit too good to be true - am I missing something I ask myself! As I will shortly be installing a new Grant boiler which is claimed to be biofuel compatible I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this development?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    The story sounds good. But ... My first thought when reading it was "will this scale up?". It's all very well doing research but is there the potential to produce the volumes needed at an acceptable price?

    My confidence wasn't improved by "OFTEC and UKIFDA are informing consumers about the new fuel through a new information website www.futurereadyfuels.info." which was followed in my browser by the announcement: "Server Not Found" and no, it wasn't the trailing full stop causing grief!

    Plus OFTEC offer a phone number (currently unmanned) and a postal address that happens to be fairly close to me. No email. So I'm less than impressed.

    PS OFTEC is a trade association, not a government organisation, so commercially-motivated rather than inspired by an overwhelming desire to make human existence better, let alone the planet!

    So colour me cynical. I'll wait until I see some real evidence.
  1.  
    More demand is expected for HVO and other biofuels than could be supplied by genuine 'waste' fats and veg oils.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/aviation/opinion/flying-on-palm-oil-why-icaos-green-fuel-plan-spells-climate-disaster/
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    My cynicism appears to be justified :bigsmile: :devil:
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    You can get more info from the companies trialling this. Mitchell and Webber (fossilfreefuels@mitweb.co.uk) and Crown Oils, are two of them. Also check out Neste (neste.com) - a company making the hydrogenation plant.

    HVO is only at the trial stage as far as I know, certainly by M&W here in Cornwall.

    I am thinking of using HVO as an interim measure reducing CO2 emissions in our relatively new boiler until it dies of old age, then go to the latest Heat Pump technology at that time, which may be even more efficient than today's.

    HVO is also a 'drop-in' replacement diesel fuel with a long tank life and less trouble in cold weather. It's clever stuff but I agree about the quantities required being beyond available 'waste', so long term is not the answer.

    Ultimately, I believe we will all be going electric in some form, either batteries or fuel cells, with Hydrogen as a direct use fuel for special needs
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
     
    Posted By: SteveZ

    I am thinking of using HVO as an interim measure reducing CO2 emissions in our relatively new boiler until it dies of old age, then go to the latest Heat Pump technology at that time, which may be even more efficient than today's.





    My position exactly. Having already been a guinea pig with regards biomass I don't want to repeat the experience with an ASHP! Like you I plan to use the new boiler with bog standard kerosene for now and hopefully switch over to HVO in the interim whilst allowing time for the development of better and hopefully much more affordable ASHP's.

    I hadn't realised the implications regarding palm oil I must admit. I see the EU have a plan to limit the amount of palm oil that can be used for HVO's and one company the Italian oil giant Eni has already been slapped with a €5 million fine over its greenwashing of palm-oil based diesel as 'green'. The company ran a major marketing campaign that deceived consumers by claiming its 'Eni Diesel+' has a positive impact on the environment.

    Maybe the UK market for heating oil is small enough that recycled waste vegetable oils alone will be sufficient to satisfy demand?

    I am going to contact some of the HVO suppliers who are engaged in these various trials and see what they are up to. One is based not far from us, so may be able to have a chat with them.
  2.  
    Posted By: Jeff BMaybe the UK market for heating oil is small enough that recycled waste vegetable oils alone will be sufficient to satisfy demand?

    Except that HVO can also be used in road transport and there won't be enough waste oil to satisfy that as well - so its avoid the use of fossil fuel oil by using HVO and destroy yet more rain forest as a result. Some choice !!
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    @djh, you fixed the wrong typo!

    https://www.futurereadyfuel.info/
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
    Posted By: Jeff BMaybe the UK market for heating oil is small enough that recycled waste vegetable oils alone will be sufficient to satisfy demand?

    Except that HVO can also be used in road transport and there won't be enough waste oil to satisfy that as well - so its avoid the use of fossil fuel oil by using HVO and destroy yet more rain forest as a result. Some choice !!

    It's very difficult to predict the outcomes here because of the inherent complexity of the markets, wider economy,political and cultural pressures... but my optimistic thoughts are that electrified transport has so many significant non-carbon related benefits the transformation will happen anyway.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Posted By: gravelld@djh, you fixed the wrong typo!

    https://www.futurereadyfuel.info/

    Thanks for finding the site. But that makes it perfectly clear that it's a vested interest lobbying site, so not worth spending more than a minute on, IMHO.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Posted By: gravelld
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
    Posted By: Jeff BMaybe the UK market for heating oil is small enough that recycled waste vegetable oils alone will be sufficient to satisfy demand?

    Except that HVO can also be used in road transport and there won't be enough waste oil to satisfy that as well - so its avoid the use of fossil fuel oil by using HVO and destroy yet more rain forest as a result. Some choice !!

    It's very difficult to predict the outcomes here because of the inherent complexity of the markets, wider economy,political and cultural pressures... but my optimistic thoughts are that electrified transport has so many significant non-carbon related benefits the transformation will happen anyway.

    Not quite sure what you're suggesting there? What transformation? How does it affect HVO?
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Peter was suggesting spare used vegetable oil would be used up by transportation,or transportation would apply extra demand.

    He might be right, but my suggestion is that the benefits of electrified transport go beyond just those of reducing carbon emissions, so maybe people won't want to use HVO.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Posted By: gravelldbut my suggestion is that the benefits of electrified transport go beyond just those of reducing carbon emissions, so maybe people won't want to use HVO.

    It's not clear how electrification can be used for long-distance HGVs or for shipping, just to take two examples.
  3.  
    Also when talking about the electrification of transport that will only apply to new vehicles. The legacy vehicles will be around for a long time and I'm not sure how economic or environmentally friendly it would be to scrap a vehicle bought in say 2020 or even 2016 just to get it off the road to be replaced by an EV.

    Posted By: djhIt's not clear how electrification can be used for long-distance HGVs or for shipping, just to take two examples.

    Tesla has a long distance HVG that as far as I have seen its charging requirements are designed about HGV drivers max driving hours and required rest stops. But it does suppose sufficient charging points with enough grid support behind the charging points. The video I saw claimed 400 mile range charge in 30 mins. - now that is going to mean glowing grid wires across the fields by the time you have a few trucks at a truck stop.
  4.  
    Or long distance aviation - if there is going to be a limited supply of genuine "waste" derived liquid biofuel, probably it would most efficiently be used to displace aviation fuel, as there are other renewable options emerging for space heating (electric/heatpump), cars (batteries), HGVs (hydrogen) and shipping (ammonia).

    As was in the news recently, road diesel and petrol already are blended with a few % of biofuels, which consumes wheat and veg oil off the market, which presumably drives demand for imported soya and palm oil.

    The relative quantities are so great that this road fuel blending probably dwarfs the market for home heating oil (anyone know?).

    If we pay for folks in Brazil and Indonesia to slash biodiverse forests to grow soya and palm, so there's enough spare cereals and veg oil left over for us to burn them, that seems a bad thing. But if you've been in a UK wheat field recently, it's just as much of a biodiversity and climate crime scene, no flowers/insects/insectivores/predators, or stored carbon. A Sitka plantation for wood chips isn't a lot better, and neither am I sure about a field full of solar panels. They all use deforested land to convert sunlight into fuel in one way or another.

    So overall the whole business of using land to make energy is complicated and full of non intuitive causes and effects. Not very sure what the best way to go is.

    Edit: these folks are going to become the biggest buyer of wheat in the UK, to supply the extra biofuel for E10 petrol. https://vivergofuels.com/process/
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    On the point of scrapping current cars on the road it is more than possible to change any petrol/diesel car into electric. I also think there will come a tipping point when it will be less convenient to find a petrol pump than an electrical charging point.

    To me the bigger revolution will come with driverless cars driving a change away from private car ownership and more towards ultra low cost hire cars on demand providing door to door service for pennies a mile. The other big change will be away from just in time supply chains towards maintaining a stockpile.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Posted By: Jonti
    To me the bigger revolution will come with driverless cars driving a change away from private car ownership

    ??? 737 Max springs to mind, in one of the most regulated industries, and thats with a flight crew present.

    With all the static and moving obstacles, the speeds autonomous cars are likely to be able to do in urban areas will be way slower than cycling and maybe even walking!!
  5.  
    Posted By: meroad fuel blending probably dwarfs the market for home heating oil (anyone know?).
    Yes, the home heating oil market (2million t/a) is a fraction of the road fuel market (49mt/a) of which 2mt/a is made by blending biofuel.

    So any biofuel-from-waste-veg-oil that is used for home heating, will just displace supply that otherwise would be blended into road fuel. Just over half of road biofuel is derived from waste, the rest from growing grain/veg-oil, mostly in warm countries.

    Who knew - the UK's largest supply of liquid biofuels is imported from China. Malaysia is #4.


    ( stats from https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/oil-and-oil-products-section-3-energy-trends and https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/renewable-fuel-statistics-2020-fifth-provisional-report/renewable-fuel-statistics-2020-fifth-provisional-report)
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungaryhow economic or environmentally friendly it would be to scrap a vehicle bought in say 2020 or even 2016 just to get it off the road to be replaced by an EV
    As far as trucks, as distinct from cars, they have an astonishingly short life (tho still huge mileage) already, the latest Euro-number (emissions/consumption) versions, and as-new efficiency of other systems, being the only economic way for fleet owners to go.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: philedge
    Posted By: Jonti
    To me the bigger revolution will come with driverless cars driving a change away from private car ownership

    ??? 737 Max springs to mind, in one of the most regulated industries, and thats with a flight crew present.

    With all the static and moving obstacles, the speeds autonomous cars are likely to be able to do in urban areas will be way slower than cycling and maybe even walking!!


    And yet the vast majority of commercial, passenger flight is done autonomously. I also wonder what % of crashes are human error verses computer? Driverless cars will be here in the next 20 years and will be much safer than human driven ones.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Looks like the energy density of HVO is about the same as kerosene, approx 9.5kWh/l... have i read that right?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Well it seems I live in the midst of go-getting councils

    https://www.keepingintouchwith.co.uk/ultra-low-emission-hvo-fleet-takes-to-the-road/

    Not sure that's a good thing or not? They seem pretty backwards in most other respects.

    And claiming zero emissions for the fleet as a result seems a bit of a stretch too far.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: djh

    And claiming zero emissions for the fleet as a result seems a bit of a stretch too far.


    I think there will be some stunningly 'flexible' claims made in the years to come as organisations struggle to meet their targets.
  6.  
    It's the same as claiming low emissions because "we are buying renewable electricity". Just shifts consumption of the polluting stuff down the chain to someone else.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenIt's the same as claiming low emissions because "we are buying renewable electricity". Just shifts consumption of the polluting stuff down the chain to someone else.


    Hence the green wash over EVs. I cant see significant biofuels being available without stamping an even bigger footprint on the planet- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34265922

    I suspect that one of the reasons we're seeing little in the way of coherent government plans to tackle climate change is that there isnt a solution that allows 'business as usual'.
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