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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: philedgeIf a supplier can send half hourly tariff rates to a standard smart meter, then any smart meter could be used as an E7 meter??
    I think that's where the two threads of discussion here overlap: the point is that the rates sent to the meter are irrelevant. What the supplier would need to do is fetch the 48 readings of Wh used in each half hour of each day then bill according to the appropriate rates for the 14 E7 half hours and the 34 daytime half hours. Just a SMOP (small matter of programming).

    Previous threads have suggested that routine night time cheap electricity rates may be a thing of the past so likely suppliers will be wanting to phase out E7 and promote time of use??
    Exactly, that might well be why they're not too interested in said SMOP.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: djhOne reason I don't have a smart meter yet is that I haven't found one that will tell ME how much electricity I use, despite my understanding being that they are legally required to provide that capability.

    My SMETS 2 meter tells me how much I have used. There is so much info in there you have to scroll through using the various buttons but had to get the instructions from the meter manufacturers as Octopus could not tell me. In it there is electricity used, electricity exported, the unit price the standing charge who my supplier is, their phone number MAPP number and lots of other stuff not worked out yet. It uses the information to show on my in house display (IHD)the amount of spend as I clock it up. On my online account can see the half hour readings of the previous day and the total used. Used to get that for the export before it fell over so I am having to give manual readings for that until it is fixed.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2021
     
    FYI we're on octopus on economy 7 - with a SMETS 2 smart meter.

    The meter took a while to get installed and working but after that it was easy.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2021
     
    Posted By: revorMy SMETS 2 meter tells me how much I have used. There is so much info in there you have to scroll through using the various buttons …
    Right, but can you get the information, particularly the instant (i.e., every 10 seconds or whatever) actual power use, in machine-readable form to be able to control things like heating?

    Posted By: jms452FYI we're on octopus on economy 7 - with a SMETS 2 smart meter.
    Interesting. Does it have any output like old E7 meters to control night storage heaters or the like? AIUI the more modern electronic E7 meters don't have that. Is that right?
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesRight, but can you get the information, particularly the instant (i.e., every 10 seconds or whatever) actual power use, in machine-readable form to be able to control things like heating?

    No there is nothing that I want to control at that level, the information I get is sufficient for me but appreciate for others it won't be. When it will be useful is when I get an EV an intelligent charger will be able, I understand, be able to charge at the EV at the cheapest rate. I do not have night heaters and do not use the immersion.
  1.  
    >>>"Interesting. Does it have any output like old E7 meters to control night storage heaters or the like? AIUI the more modern electronic E7 meters don't have that. Is that right?"

    The old ones might not be able to do that for much longer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch#Transmitter_and_service_obsolescence

    "The Radio Teleswitch Service is broadcast alongside the longwave output of BBC Radio 4 from the Droitwich Transmitting Station.

    In October 2011, the BBC admitted that the Droitwich transmitter, including Radio 4's longwave service and Radio Teleswitch, will cease to operate when one of the last two valves breaks"
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThe old ones might not be able to do that for much longer

    Old E7 meters don't use any radio control at all. They're hardwired. That's presumably why they don't follow summer time changes either. The ability to control night storage heaters is just another power relay alongside the relay that switches from the day meter register to the night one. Both controlled by some form of time clock within the meter. I don't know exactly what but my guess would be a synchronous clock movement.

    There's nothing will stop them working, apart from old age or an axe through the front.

    edit: though looking at the wikipedia article it seems there might be some somewhere that use teleswitching. None I've ever seen though.
    • CommentAuthorCliff Pope
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021
     
    "I think you're choosing to argue semantics, not me. Whatever verb you use, an E7 meter collects (or any other verb of your choice) data about kWh used; it does not collect (or report or calculate or any other verb) any data about the costs of electricity. "


    It "knows" the time, because it has a clockwork timing mechanism, and the inevitable consequence of switching to a different time will be that the electricity supplied after that switch is charged at a different rate.

    Doing something with an inevitable consequence can be enough to convict someone of murder :)
  2.  
    "1.4 million electricity meter 'MPAN' locations thought to still be using radio teleswitching"

    Sounds like more electricity meters listen to BBC R4 on longwave than humans do....

    Edit: wouldn't a synchronous clock run slow after any power cut?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenEdit: wouldn't a synchronous clock run slow after any power cut?

    Very true. So there must be something more sophisticated in use I suppose. Does anybody know how it works?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021
     
    Posted By: Cliff PopeDoing something with an inevitable consequence can be enough to convict someone of murder :)

    Just killing argumentative people would probably be enough to get convicted for murder as well. :bigsmile:

    Whether the price changes when an E7 meter switches from register 1 to register 2 and by how much it changes and what the overall price level is are a consequence of the tariff the user is on. The meter is not part of that calculation and does not handle any of that data. It is not 'aware' of whether the price changes or not.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2021
     
  3.  
    More about how E7/E10 radio teleswitching works here, is/was quite a clever system in its day, allowing for dynamic timing changes and emergency load shedding, depending on weather and surplus power availability. But now obsolete.

    Some houses seemingly have 'three circuit wiring' (different meter tails providing: peak rate, off-peak radio-switched, off-peak unswitched) which are difficult to replicate with a smart meter. Mainly in Scottish Hydro areas but I haven't seen any.

    https://forum.ovoenergy.com/my-account-140/radio-teleswitch-rts-shutdown-sunset-faq-9040
  4.  
    Posted By: Ed DaviesDoes it have any output like old E7 meters to control night storage heaters or the like
    https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/have-storage-heaters-underfloor-heating-or-other-5th-terminal-appliances-now-you-can-get-a-smets2-smart-meter-diy-tutorial-series-8545

    It seems that 5-terminal SMETS2 meters are available, with one always-on live tail, and one off-peak tail that is switched remotely by the supplier at times of their choice. So they could offer you Economy 7. Or Economy 10, E12, E20, E5+2, EV, or any other two-price tariff they dreamed up..

    Get the impression though that the idea of having physically separate 'peak' and 'offpeak' wiring might eventually be replaced by having everything on the same physical supply and switching the off-peak stuff on/off digitally, using the internet or the SM comms network.
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