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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthordeniance
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2021
     
    Hi all, me again, I’ve just ordered some kingspan boards to insulate my internal walls, I think someone mentioned before about thermal window linings, what are they called?

    The plan is to add 50mm kingspan inside then use the blue foam boards with cement layer on them so I can tile onto them, , I’m going to tile inside the window reveal too, so do I use say 25mm kingspan around the window them a tile backer board, or do I just use a 25mm foam tile backer board?

    Cheers all
      CB0AFEE5-917F-4792-BEE6-F02A4ECD79E4.jpeg
    • CommentAuthordeniance
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2021
     
    This is the stuff, it comes in a few different thicknesses, and can tile straight on to it, would this be ok around windows ?
      E4B961BE-AC86-4226-B32B-F4C62C0DD4E0.png
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2021
     
    Yes, you can use any of those foam-centred concrete-faced tile backer boards in the window reveal or indeed on the wall itself as well. They're available in a range of thicknesses from 4 mm to 60 mm or more from a variety of places. The XPS centre means they're waterproof, as long as you use the corresponding tapes on the joints. Use spreaders on the screws to spread the fastening load.

    If you want to avoid the bother of tiling, you can get similar boards with ready-finished surfaces in various patterns. We used those because SWMBO hates cleaning grout.
    • CommentAuthordeniance
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2021
     
    Posted By: djhYes, you can use any of those foam-centred concrete-faced tile backer boards in the window reveal or indeed on the wall itself as well. They're available in a range of thicknesses from 4 mm to 60 mm or more from a variety of places. The XPS centre means they're waterproof, as long as you use the corresponding tapes on the joints. Use spreaders on the screws to spread the fastening load.

    If you want to avoid the bother of tiling, you can get similar boards with ready-finished surfaces in various patterns. We used those because SWMBO hates cleaning grout.




    Thanks , I have just been looking , I was gonna stuck 50mm kingspan on the wall and then a 6mm tile backer board, but I can see you can get a 50mm foam tile board anyway!!
  1.  
    XPS is not as good insulation value as PIR/phenolic (the stuff sold as 'kingspan') so you'd want thicker XPS. I'm a fan of those XPS boards but they were more expensive than kingspan last time I used them, for equal insulation value

    Consider if you need a fire resistant layer in your build up to cover the insulation, such as plasterboard or cement board, not sure if tiles/laminate on XPS would be enough protection, but maybe you don't need it?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 18th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenConsider if you need a fire resistant layer in your build up to cover the insulation, such as plasterboard or cement board, not sure if tiles/laminate on XPS would be enough protection, but maybe you don't need it?

    I'm confused now. I started out thinking that the photo shows a block wall so that's the fire resistance and we're discussing internal decoration so fire protection isn't relevant, and then I remembered deniance said "insulate my internal walls" and I've just realised how silly that sounds, plus the photo includes a window so it doesn't look like an internal wall anyway??? Perhaps deniance will explain?

    I agree with you about the different lambda though, although it's all tempered through my own blinkers of "don't ever install any PIR/PUR". If you must have good insulation values for thickness then go for phenolic or aerogel, otherwise there are many other choices.
  2.  
    I can't give advice on this subject, but I understood that building standards (at least in Scotland*) require wall linings to be fire Class C or better, to avoid them contributing a lot of fuel to any fire in the room. Although with complicated exceptions, including for smallish areas, which could include window reveals or small tiled areas. Escape routes need to be better, Class B.

    My non-expert opinion is that to meet this, XPS and PIR need to be covered over by something substantial which definitely won't fall off in a fire, obvs this is usually plasterboard. Dunno about protecting XPS with tiles/grout or printed plastic laminates.

    I understand that phenolic board such as Kingspan Kooltherm is much better, but other materials are sometimes generically described as 'kingspan' in the trade.

    A little knowledge is dangerous and I have little knowledge , so do your own thinking!

    *Edit: English regs seem similar, AD B vol1 requirement B2 table 4.1
    • CommentAuthordeniance
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenXPS is not as good insulation value as PIR/phenolic (the stuff sold as 'kingspan') so you'd want thicker XPS. I'm a fan of those XPS boards but they were more expensive than kingspan last time I used them, for equal insulation value

    Consider if you need a fire resistant layer in your build up to cover the insulation, such as plasterboard or cement board, not sure if tiles/laminate on XPS would be enough protection, but maybe you don't need it?


    Oh dear, I didn’t even know you had to cover insulation with fireproof stuff! Didn’t even think about it!
    • CommentAuthordeniance
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2022
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenConsider if you need a fire resistant layer in your build up to cover the insulation, such as plasterboard or cement board, not sure if tiles/laminate on XPS would be enough protection, but maybe you don't need it?

    I'm confused now. I started out thinking that the photo shows a block wall so that's the fire resistance and we're discussing internal decoration so fire protection isn't relevant, and then I remembered deniance said "insulate my internal walls" and I've just realised how silly that sounds, plus the photo includes a window so it doesn't look like an internal wall anyway??? Perhaps deniance will explain?

    I agree with you about the different lambda though, although it's all tempered through my own blinkers of "don't ever install any PIR/PUR". If you must have good insulation values for thickness then go for phenolic or aerogel, otherwise there are many other choices.


    I’ve had the extension built and there’s insulation boards in the cavity but it’s poorly done, just slapped in as it was built, I was thinking it’s a hash and no use so I decided to add insulation inside, thinking this was a good idea but now you’ve mentioned fire I’m thinking I’ve done something wrong
  3.  
    The discussion above is relating to spread of fire along and internal surfaces. So for example, the 70's practice of gluing beautiful polystyrene mouldings to walls and ceilings would be a problem, as they encourage fire to spread, and drip flaming droplets.

    As per WiA ref., the regs would require you to use materials on the surface (excluding the paint) that were

    "Other rooms (including garages) European Classification C-s3, d2"

    (the s3 and d2 parts refer to smoke generation and burning bits that float away or drip off)

    As an example, plasterboard is reated A2, which is limited combustibility. Fire line platerboard (pink) would be A0. So plasterboard over the insulation. (Closer to A and the lower the number, implies a better rating)

    Tiles, which I think you said you would be covering the walls in, would be the surface material under question. Assuming ceramic rather than plastic tiles, I would imaging would have about as high a non-combustible rating as can be achieved.

    When you fix the tile backer board, in addition to gluing, you should use mechanical fixings, to prevent it peeling off the wall in the event of fire. That said, a bathroom is very low risk.
  4.  
    Does anyone know of any refs for whether tile grout keeps tiles reliably stuck onto XPS during a fire? Is there a minimum thickness of ceramic tile/grout needed for fire resistance? (CF the move away from 9.5mm plasterboards which seemingly were too thin)

    I don't have any knowledge either way on this subject, interested to learn! It would save effort if we could tile straight onto insulation boards, if the fire safety aspects are acceptable.

    We insulated a bathroom with PIR, covered that with green plasterboard, and put plywood-cored decorative bathroom panels over the top of that. I remember wondering if the plasterboard was necessary or not.

    I doubt that xps-cored decorative-laminate bathroom panels would have class C resistance, but maybe they would only be used in small areas so fall in one of the exemptions in the stds which allow small areas of Class D. (Edit: on reflection, I don't think they are allowed)

    (Edit to add: just realised that we are discussing bathrooms, but Deniance maybe building a kitchen or a bathroom - in Scotland the rules are tighter for kitchens).
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 7th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI don't have any knowledge either way on this subject, interested to learn! It would save effort if we could tile straight onto insulation boards, if the fire safety aspects are acceptable.
    I think that the XPS tile mount boards typically have a cement-based fibre-reinforced surface to tile onto, so their surface is not combustible. As such I believe they meet fire regs even if left exposed (not that I'm suggesting that :) The easiest way to establish the situation might be to ask the manufacturers; I can't believe they market products that can't be used easily.
  5.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: djh</cite><blockquote><cite> "insulate my internal walls" and I've just realised how silly that sounds, plus the photo includes a window so it doesn't look like an internal wall anyway??? Perhaps deniance will explain?

    </blockquote>

    There's a subtle wording difference between an "internal wall" and the "inside of an external wall".
  6.  
    Conspicuously no mention of any fire test results on the website or BBA of the mfr of XPS tile backer boards that we used. And the cement layer is <1mm thick so I doubt that would have any bearing on the fire classification, especially compared to 15mm of plasterboard. But again, I'm no expert!

    (Edit: the BBA of another manufacturer states their boards were tested Class E and so will be 'restricted in use by Building Regulations'.

    To be fair, the manufacturers have no control over the type or quality of tiles or tile adhesive that will be used, so are not going to be able to guarantee the fire performance.)

    Further edit: I'd understood the concept of 'surface fire resistance' came from the old BS test methods. These have been replaced in building stds/regs by the new European test methods, Class A-E, which examine the combined fire performance of the surface and core. I'm still no expert.
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