I don't understand the obsession with 18866. It seems like it'll probably work but if it doesn't there are alternatives which will (and would be cheaper to Japanese landlines).

Posted By: borpinI'm surprised OFCOM have allowed it in the short timescales.

It's not just the UK. Switzerland apparently completed their switch-over in 2019. New phone lines have been IP-only in France for a couple of years, a few pilot areas switched in 2019 with the rest are to follow from next autumn.

Posted By: Ed DaviesMy “landline” number is actually on a VoIP service (sipgatebasic.co.uk) which gives me a normal local-area [¹] number... ...Sipgate's rate for calls to Japanese landlines is 1.9 p/min and 9.9 p/min to Japanese mobiles.

Like Ed, I switched over to VoIP at least 5 years ago (voipfone.co.uk), with no problems. Sipgate's rates to Japan are lower, so I'd have no hesitation in suggesting them as a solution, if that's the country you'll be calling.

Posted By: Rexam I correct in assuming that with a 'VoIP phone/adapter' I can use my existing BT copper wire, or would this plug into the FTTP router?

The adapter works the other way around. It allows you to connect an existing phone to a VOIP connection/service. A VOIP phone plugs directly into an Ethernet connection.

The offer to 'sign up now' and plug my existing phone into a VoIP phone/adapter; what does the phone adapter plug into? My existing broadband router or does it need FTTP?

That depends on your router. Some like mine have a built-in VOIP phone adapter whilst others don't so you either need a VOIP phone or a VOIP phone adapter to enable you to use your existing phone. Either way you need a router to connect you to the Internet.

https://www.nextiva.com/blog/how-does-voip-work.html explains some of it, including a bit about connecting an existing PBX like Tom's neighbourhood business needs to do. You can run more IP services down a bit of wire than you can analogue PSTN connections, so however BT/Openreach propose connecting that business's telephone lines it should be able to work.

DJH, the VOIP system works with copper landlines, it only needs a tiny amount of internet bandwidth so FTTC is ample, it doesn't need full fibre. There is no convincing plan to roll out Openreach FTTP to large parts of the country. Alternative companies are building their own private networks to fill some of the gaps but not all.

Rex, the reason you are finding this confusing is that the concept is fast disappearing of a 'phone line' for which you pay per minute plus line rental. Phone calls on VoIP are just another kind of internet data, just the same as emails are, and you don't need to pay extra to send those to anywhere in the world. The traditional companies that charged per minute for calls are going to go out of business very soon, unless they can confuse enough people to carry on paying them unnecessarily for calls or 'line rental' , so they give out impenetrable advice, as you found.

The idea of a wire running from a landline handset to a specific plug socket is also disappearing, your phone call can be sent out onto the internet from any device that already has an internet connection on WiFi or Ethernet, such as your mobile phone handset, iPad, PC, laptop, etc, or maybe a TV or Alexa, anything with a microphone.

You don't need any hardware such as adapters or handsets, you just need some software on your smart phone (or iPad, PC, etc) to access the service. There are many service providers such as were mentioned up the thread. There will be somebody's software pre installed, depending on who made your device (apple facetime, Google duo, Microsoft Skype), but you might like to start with installing the Skype software on your smartphone because many people already use that. That will allow you to make free voice calls from your mobile handset to anyone else who has the Skype software, wherever they are in the world. You can also pay to call people who don't have the software but still have landlines, typically 2p/minute to Japan, but they will find it easy and cost effective to install Skype themselves. When they call you, your smartphone rings and you answer it, as normal. It is also free to make a video call on your smart phone, which some of my relatives prefer as they are hard of hearing and it helps when they can see my face.

The legacy phone company will be happy to provide you with a box to plug your old wired handset into, the box connects to the internet with an ethernet wire or by WiFi, or they might put a socket on the back of your router. This preserves the illusion that voice calls are somehow different from other internet data and so some people might be willing to pay extra for them.

HTH

Edit to add: the concept is also disappearing of a single phone number for a house that is shared by all/any of the occupants who are at home. Instead there is one (at least) VoIP service connection for each person, so you call directly to whoever you want to speak to, wherever they happen to be at that time.

"I don't know what's new" - only the "Internet Protocol (IP)" bit. AFAICT there is a deliberate conflation of Change A (PSTN to VoIP) with unrelated but simultaneous Change B (FTTC to FTTP in some areas).

"While half of those in the UK currently have, and use a landline, that number drops to just under 25 per cent among 18 to 34-year olds."

(First result on https://www.google.com/search?q=who+needs+a+landline+anymore )

Posted By: djh"By [2025], every phone line in the UK will have moved to a fully digital network that uses Internet Protocol (IP) across a fibre-based service." AFAIK it already is fibre-based up to the green kerbside boxes so I don't know what's new?

No, unless you have FTTP (full fibre), then both copper and fibre are used.

If you have a copper line, this either connects to an FTTC (kerbside) cabinet, where the phone and data connections are separated (phone over copper, data over fibre), or to a local exchange, where the same thing happens. So, at the moment, BT have to maintain two separate networks; analogue for voice, digital IP-based for data.

BT are shutting down their entire analogue network, so _they_ will be left with a fibre-only network - except for any copper line running from your home to their cabinet or exchange. You will be left with only the IP-based data connection active, so if you want a traditional phone, it will need to be VoIP based, plug into a dedicated phone port on your router, or use an adapter.

Under the transition arrangements "your phone provider will be in touch to arrange for you to be set up with a hub or router, so you’ll be able to continue to make calls over the new network."
See https://www.futureofvoice.co.uk/

If you only want to keep your existing phone number, not the line, then you can port it to a VoIP provider and call via your mobile phone using WiFi or your mobile's data network (though this is also compatible with a VoIP-based landline - See Ed Davies' post re Sipgate).

If you don't need your existing landline number either, then a chat app (WhatsApp, Telegram, etc) - or just your mobile number - is all you need.

Let's stick to the Openreach telephone system.

First, the term and concept of 'landline' need to be retired and the term "Network Connection" introduced - as that is what it will/has become. Instead of simply putting a phone handset on the connection, you need an additional bit of equipment (your ISP Router - no longer a MODEM).

When thinking about this connection and the fibre/copper question, think wired ethernet computers - they use copper for that last (up to) 100m from the switch/router. But copper has distance issues - bandwidth/speed drops the further you are from the first cabinet that can switch your network connection from the copper to fibre.

I think rather than PSTN (as that is the infrastructure) the last mile should be referred to as POTS (Plain Old Telephone System). This still relies on Analogue signals (tones and voltages) although these are all immediately converted to digital where the copper ends).

POTS communicates by means of tones (used to be clicks in the analogue days - think telephone with a rotary dial). All that currently happens is those tones are transferred from a copper infrastructure to a fibre based infrastructure to tell the PSTN equipment what to do. The PSTN equipment then converts those tone instructions into a VOIP call and, if the termination is at a POTS number, the conversion happens in reverse so your phone rings (a voltage is applied across 2 wires).

I presume for VOIP, the tones are translated nearer to the handset (your ISP Modem?) as you can use existing handsets (I believe). Were FTTP installs automatically converted to VOIP or was the POTS line retained?

Posted By: Mike1BT are shutting down their entire analogue network,

Yes, but it is only the last mile/copper analogue - it is all digital switching now.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungarySo what will happen to areas with v. poor mobile coverage in power cut circumstances.

Tough! - that is what will happen.

Posted By: Mike1if you want a traditional phone, it will need to be VoIP based, plug into a dedicated phone port on your router, or use an adapter.

I'm pretty sure you can use existing handsets, but need a new router from your ISP and all handsets must go through that (rather than be wired to the master socket).

Peter, see the previous page, I posted a link to the 12V UPS that BT dish out to keep routers powered so that internet doesn't go off immediately in a power cut. So you can continue to watch Netflix on your tablet, or phone your friends, while waiting for the lights to come back on.

(Other 12V and 240V battery UPSs are of course available!)

Edit: in the comments below this article, some people are running their routers on 12V direct from a car battery.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/12/solutions-for-battery-backup-of-fibre-broadband-and-voip-phone.html

Tom,

I am amazed this solution has not been more widely used. I have a similar one with 60Mbps and 20Mbps upload for £32.50 a month. Mine is on a monthly contract billed on a daily pro rata. So when I am away for 4 weeks next month I simply cancel on the day I go and start when I come back.

A different world.

You mean the likes of Airband wireless is even higher frequency than 5G's, which everyone's up in arms about?

I congratulate myself - yes I do - that I hear stuff from all sides, tend to favour the iconoclastic, and have no resistance to changing my views/admitting error when nailed. Still, the iconoclastic is fun while it lasts - better than the opposite.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenyour village transmitter needs a revolving restaurant on top?

I'll put it to our new dynamic parish council.

Thanks for the comments. Not sure I even understand the nature of my question but I guess the reason that the CPS we use are so cheap for a call to Japan is that they also use VOIP to route the call.

My in-laws in Japan are not up-to-speed with WhatsApp or Zoom (and nor do we.)

The bigger issue is that to use anything that needs the computer, means that the receiving computer has to be on or one has to make a time for the call. That is less convenient than a phone which rings with an incoming call. So I would like to keep the phone line but certainly don't want to pay the BT charge.

I've not used our landline since we moved into the new home 6 years ago. In fact that's wrong - I made a test call and was so shocked by the per minute charge when the bill came through I unplugged the phone and haven't reconnected it. If you have a mobile even a sub £10 sim-only tariff will give you unlimited calls plus a load of data. The cheap 'inclusive' tariff for calls on my landline cost more than that (and I've already got the mobile)

For international calls WhatsApp for people who are using it is effectively free and better audio quality than a 'voice call' on the mobile. Incoming calls ring just like a phone call.

To ring overseas landlines, Skype app on the phone cost a fraction of a penny per minute. You can buy an incoming Skype phone number (that looks like a UK landline) for £5 a month and again, that will ring on your smartphone like any other incoming call (no need to have a computer running).

I'm sure there are other services but I suspect few have an app as convenient as Skype.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungarySo what will happen to areas with v. poor mobile coverage in power cut circumstances.
E.g my sister gets v. poor mobile reception when outside her house, and nothing inside location rural Kent)

Steel framing/foil backed insulation/windows mean our mobile reception is pretty unreliable inside though strong outside. We have Wifi calling switched on on our mobiles. I'm not sure what the official solution for your sister is but a small UPS to run her wifi router coupled with wifi calling should give her a resilient mobile phone.

Posted By: RexThink I will keep my copper until I am unable to do so

Evnin' all

Think this thread is going in circles a bit now, but for future ref, here is the 12V power supply from BT to keep their internet and VoIP line working through a power cut:

"https://shop.bt.com/content/uni2/documentation/fv54/cyberpower_bbu_sh2_(2).pdf"

Other/better/cheaper 12V power banks are also available, as indeed are car batteries, and 240V UPSs and generators, as indeed are phone services that are not from BT.

The copper lines apparently run off a 48V battery in the base of the green roadside cabinet, which is good for several hours power outage, unless somebody has nicked it.

During the lengthy power cuts after Storm Arwen, the mobile network here seems to have held up fairly well. The main problems were with the landline network due to trees fallen on wires.