Green Building Forum - Who says it can't be done? Wed, 10 Jun 2026 07:49:55 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295783#Comment_295783 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295783#Comment_295783 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 09:28:52 +0100 fostertom https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/13/italys-superbonus-110-scheme-prompts-surge-of-green-home-renovations

"... Italy’s generous superbonus 110% scheme, which has so far cost the government about €21bn (£17.5bn) since launching in July 2020 as part of the country’s post-pandemic recovery strategy"

"... the vast majority of the money coming from the EU’s post-Covid recovery fund ... a “shock tactic” to get the system going in a country with a huge stock of old or poorly constructed buildings"

Like FiTS - I suppose a miracle that happened in UK - hugely succesful, despite its funding source (everyone's electricity bill) making it a retrogressive tax on the poor, for middle class benefit.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295785#Comment_295785 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295785#Comment_295785 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:45:42 +0100 WillInAberdeen
Possibly the UK Energy Company Obligation scheme has been under-sung by comparison

"[Since 2013] Around 3.5 million measures were installed in 2.4 million properties through the Energy Company Obligation (ECO) [plus a handful through the Green Deal]

"Solid wall insulation 4%
Loft insulation 11%
Other insulation (underfloor) 12%
Cavity wall insulation 17%
Boiler upgrades 25%


"the total cost of ECO was £5.76 billion [=£2k per property]
[=£0.7bn per year]

"[A subset of] Around 1.88 million [which is about half of the total installations, were] estimated to deliver £18.7 billion worth of notional lifetime bill savings "

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1056548/HEE_Stats_Release_-_February_2022.pdf

As with FITS, the ECO is funded stealthily through electricity bills, so is regressive/inefficient/untransparent and now poorly targeted re carbon intensity. I'd like to see both funded from general taxation. ECO spending is at least targeted broadly at those in need of help.

Under the next tranche of ECO they will stop electricity consumers from funding installation of gas boilers, which will be better, increase funding to £1bn each year and focus on fabric improvement.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295786#Comment_295786 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295786#Comment_295786 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:15:27 +0100 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeenwhat are they doing with all that?Earthquake proofing, roof rebuilding are mentioned, not just UK's mainly low-hanging insulation fruits - Loft insulation, Cavity wall insulation, Boiler upgrades 53%; middle branches - Solid wall insulation, Other insulation (underfloor) 16%; (so 31% unspecified but prob not upper branches like Enerphit). Italy's scheme seems to be more like UK's Home Improvement Grants, as was, with added greening, and as everyone's been saying, the prime job-creation element of post-Covid recovery.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295787#Comment_295787 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295787#Comment_295787 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:02:30 +0100 borpin
For example...

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/580976-is-europe-headed-toward-another-debt-crisis/

Quite a bit of this is 'disappearing'. 5Bn of the 20Bn in Fraud!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-23/energy-efficiency-program-led-to-fraud-in-rome-milan

No such thing as free money.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295790#Comment_295790 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295790#Comment_295790 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:32:36 +0100 fostertom Posted By: borpinNo such thing as free money.Not quite true
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deficit-Myth-Modern-Monetary-Economy/dp/1529352568/ref=sr_1_1?crid=38Q3BFTMYHIQ0&keywords=deficit+myth&qid=1649863452&sprefix=deficit+myth%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-1
but designing schemes so the money reaches the intended hands and no others, stays in economic circulation not syphoned off to inflate stock 'values', is the challenge, and fast savvy plugging of holes thereafter; alternatively an invitation to political connivance. Focus on the latter, rather than poo-pooing the whole idea.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295791#Comment_295791 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295791#Comment_295791 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:40:14 +0100 borpin
I'll raise you https://positivemoney.org/

Money doesn't actually exist.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295792#Comment_295792 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295792#Comment_295792 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 17:20:20 +0100 WillInAberdeen
According to MMT, governments should print and distribute money to pump up their economy when it is weak, but at times (like these) of rising inflation and labour shortages, they should rein in the inflating economy by cutting spending, raising taxes, and so withdrawing money from circulation. Which is not far off what the traditionalists think. The "free money" is only available when the Magic Money Tree is in fruitful years!

The UK and US are not very different from the Euro zone- they have regions within their currency zone that are over-inflating and other regions that are still doing poorly. Much of their economies overlap (through trade) with other countries' economies, so we cannot control inflation in (eg) energy prices simply by slowing down our own currency's printing press, any more than Italy can.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295795#Comment_295795 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295795#Comment_295795 Wed, 13 Apr 2022 22:22:59 +0100 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeenAccording to MMT, governments should print and distribute money to pump up their economy when it is weak, but at times (like these) of rising inflation and labour shortages, they should rein in the inflating economy by cutting spending, raising taxes, and so withdrawing money from circulation.Correct, and as 'the market' is no longer doing its 'hidden hand' thing (if it ever does) a great deal of wisdom, skill and integrity is necessary, to regulate the money-tap as you describe. The temptations to all kinds of corrupt/political misuse are still there just the same.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenWhich is not far off what the traditionalists think. The "free money" is only available when the Magic Money Tree is in fruitful years!
Yes, but, it's different. As economic activity, esp foundational local small-scale enterprise, is frequently throttled by lack of capital and/or customer spending money even when growth potential exists, an easy-to-create ready supply of same whenever appropriate can tip the balance towards boom, making the boom and bust cycle less inevitable.

Of course, sustained growth horrifies 'Limits to Growth' era thinking, so the move towards de-materialising the economy - doing same or more with less and less resources - becomes more important than ever.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295796#Comment_295796 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295796#Comment_295796 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 07:47:51 +0100 borpin
IMHO the Euro will fail at some point.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenbacked by German and French taxpayers
Less so as Frances GDP/Debt ration balloons.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenbut Italy has little control over the total money supply
Money supply is simply a bank adding a ledger entry and hoping everyone who has a credit balance don't decide they want it back.

More importantly (from the original topic), is the 25% of the money 'spent' on improvements not actually doing improvements.

When the first Financial Crisis hit, instead of QE inflating stocks, the Gov should have invested in new social housing and housing stock improvements, had a massive drive for new skilled building workforce, invested in modern building methods etc. This would have pumped money into the real economy, reduced unemployment, reduced benefits, improved living standards etc. A missed opportunity.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295797#Comment_295797 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295797#Comment_295797 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 09:02:22 +0100 fostertom Posted By: borpinWhen the first Financial Crisis hit, instead of QE inflating stocks, the Gov should have invested in new social housing and housing stock improvements, had a massive drive for new skilled building workforce, invested in modern building methods etc. This would have pumped money into the real economy, reduced unemployment, reduced benefits, improved living standards etc. A missed opportunity.Isn't the point of this topic, that that's exactly what Italy is doing, on a notably large and sufficient scale? It's been advocated for Europe, for USA, but the usual fiscal conservatism has prevented - until now? So now we see the snags and dangers - and hopefully learn just how to nurture and encourage an economy, rather than sqeeze and strangle it + inflate stock values, when downturn/inflation comes.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295798#Comment_295798 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295798#Comment_295798 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:41:59 +0100 fostertom https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/14/rishi-sunak-parliaments-icarus-fraud-furlough-chancellor :

"In organising the £46bn “bounce back loan scheme”, he (Sunak) has overseen the greatest amount of fraud of any chancellor – so bad that one of his own ministers, Lord Agnew, resigned in disgust. Considering the sums of public money involved, this scandal should be on every front page in Britain: tens of thousands of loans handed to potential fraudsters and an estimated figure of up to £20bn lost from the public purse."]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295799#Comment_295799 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295799#Comment_295799 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:56:50 +0100 WillInAberdeen Posted By: fostertoma great deal of wisdom, skill and integrity is necessary, to regulate the money-tap as you describe. The temptations to all kinds of corrupt/political misuse are still there just the same. There's a general election due in Italy next year I think.

Most major countries have handed monetary policy over to 'independent' central banks expressly to show separation of powers, incumbent politicians are not supposed to be able to print showers of money just before an election. I think this is a flaw with MMT which talks lots about 'democratic' (IE political) control of the money supply, used by government instead of fiscal policy. In the QE era the incumbent politicians can already borrow showers of money to hand out just before an election (Italy), and that is not different to printing it if the central bank immediately buys up all the government loans.

There is a rumbling debate in Scotland about whether it is a good idea to be in the Sterling zone together with London, the same as the Germany/Italy Euro problem. However they are both offshoots of bigger political identity debates, and there are no obvious better alternatives, so it will rumble on until there is a crisis (hopefully never).


If you've tried to buy building materials or get trades recently (as I'm sure you have!), you'll know the building sector is massively overheated with rampant price inflation. The last thing it needs is a sudden wodge of 'stimulus' money arriving over a short period to pump it up some more. That doesn't end up in extra output, it goes straight into the pockets of the suppliers and their suppliers. There needs to be a genuinely long term increase in building investment (decades) which will allow for training, recruitment, building factories, etc.
From the OP article: "However, soaring demand also pushed up the cost of building services... and left the limited supply of contractors booked up to the hilt for at least a year."]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295800#Comment_295800 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295800#Comment_295800 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:09:23 +0100 borpin Posted By: fostertomIsn't the point of this topic, that that's exactly what Italy is doing,Yes, and I'm not saying that fundamentally it isn't something that cannot be done but;

a. Pick a time and don't do it when doing QE as well. We have missed a great time to do it.
b. Try and avoid 25% fraud. Instead on concentrating on private housing, concentrate on Social Housing through HAs and LCs.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenThere is a rumbling debate in Scotland about whether it is a good idea to be in the Sterling zone together with London,
Oh come on - that is a political debate. Any reasonable view from a financial perspective says a. An Indy Scotland would never be allowed to use Sterling, b. An Indy Scotland could not sustain it's own currency. The sharks would have it for breakfast.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295801#Comment_295801 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295801#Comment_295801 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:15:40 +0100 WillInAberdeen Posted By: borpinMore importantly (from the original topic), is the 25% of the money 'spent' on improvements not actually doing improvements.If they are spending £150k per property to insulate the roof and fit a heatpump in 1% of their housing stock, it sounds like 85% of the money is not actually going on improvements. It sounds like this is a 'pay someone to dig a hole then fill it in again' scheme as advocated by some 20thC economists - just a way for gov to dump money into the economy. See also Tom's example.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295802#Comment_295802 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295802#Comment_295802 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 11:20:05 +0100 WillInAberdeen Posted By: borpin
Posted By: WillInAberdeenThere is a rumbling debate in Scotland about whether it is a good idea to be in the Sterling zone together with London,
Oh come on - that is a political debate. Any reasonable view from a financial perspective says a. An Indy Scotland would never be allowed to use Sterling, b. An Indy Scotland could not sustain it's own currency. The sharks would have it for breakfast.That's what I said!
Likewise if Italy or Germany left the Euro.]]> Who says it can't be done? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295805#Comment_295805 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17446&Focus=295805#Comment_295805 Thu, 14 Apr 2022 18:56:29 +0100 borpin Posted By: WillInAberdeenLikewise if Italy or Germany left the Euro.I think Germany could easily survive, but the Euro would collapse if they did leave.]]>