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General: Hot water cylinder and controls

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1 to 29 of 29

  1.  
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2022
     
    I am fitting an unvented HW cylinder on my flat renovation. I want to be able to control the cylinder from my phone.

    What do i use to control it ?

    I understand i can fit a programmable timer, but i need the remote facility as well. The flat will also be a holiday let and so for many days of the year it will be empty, so i dont want to be heating HW when no one is using it. So i need to be able to turn on the cylinder say on a friday morning and then leave it running as it would normally do, until the flat is empty again and thats when i would switch it off.

    Also i am looking at buying one of these: https://www.heatershop.co.uk/gledhill-stainless-es-unvented-170-litre-cylinder-direct-connection

    Are there any better recommendations than this type ? Solar water could possibly be fitted in later years, so I have been told to get a 2 coil unit.
  2.  
    We inherited one of that make of cylinder, we needed to add a lot more insulation, and the factory fitted immersion had a failed cutout I felt was unsafe, so I replaced it. No complaints otherwise.

    One observation is that ours has a solar coil (unused as yet) which occupies most of the bottom part of the cylinder. The indirect coil and the immersion are above that, halfway up the cylinder. This means that at the moment only the top part of the cylinder is heated, so the volume of hot water available is less than expected. Don't know if they are all like this.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    We have a Gledhill thermal store. Copper rather than stainless - previous generation. No particular complaints about the make. I too added more insulation - blame UK regs for the poor level. Our tank has two immersions, one at the bottom and one half way up. I think it has a coil but we don't use it.

    The direct cylinder appears to have two immersions as standard and NO coils. The indirect has a coil and one immersion, above the coil. There doesn't appear to be an option for a second coil.

    As Will implies, check the spec of what you're buying. They change specs all the time.
    • CommentAuthorGareth J
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    If it's just an immersion one, a 13A smart plug would work. It'd be on the limit of the 13a rating most have though. You could also use such a plug to fire the HW side of a heating controller. But if going that route, maybe one of the purpose built smart heating controllers would be better.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    +1
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    We also have a Gledhill vented S/S 300l solar direct has the one solar coil 2 boiler tapings and one UFH tapings No real issues other than the stain around the top of the cylinder capping really annoys me just for the sake of masking off the are when they insulated the cylinder with expanding foam
    We don't use immersion although it is there in emergency as the solar and boiler meets most of our needs. The use of a smart plug could work for you. Do you have other devices that you need to control e.g. C.H. A system such as Heatmiser which I have for the UFH could accommodate what you are wanting to do. Heatmiser hub and smart plugs would work and give you potential for future expansion.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    The recent Insteon debacle provides a strong lesson for any smart tech. Be careful that it will still keep working if the online servers stop working! I've no idea which of the many smart products rely on servers to operate properly.
  8.  
    Just to add: get the cylinder installed at least 150mm away from the wall, so that you can insulate all round it. They come with a pitiful couple of inches of expanded foam insulation. Ours was installed quite close to the external wall so we couldn't get much extra insulation in behind it, only some thin PIR. Much more on the front, sides and top.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    Posted By: djhThe recent Insteon debacle provides a strong lesson for any smart tech. Be careful that it will still keep working if the online servers stop working! I've no idea which of the many smart products rely on servers to operate properly.

    I've had smart plugs of which the app was pulled by the manufacturer. They turned out to connect to remote servers as well.
    I'd go for the smart thermostat option, it is probably (hopefully) better supported and offers many more options for remote control than just the immersion element.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    Thanks for the info guys.

    I am building a cupboard around the unit so will leave clearance. What do i use as extra insulation for the tank ? Is it the same as the old jackets we used to use ?

    I am having my electric radiators controlled on a wifi app and so this is the only other thing to be controlled this way in the flat. There will be no central control unit it as they all have their own stats.

    So the immersion heater is going to be the only thing on its own controller.

    I watched a video on plumber parts utube channel last night about the tesla immersion controller. You basically swap out the standard element for this new controller and get a lot more control over it. Anyone seen this ?
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SMFSTWIFI.html

    This looks like a possiblity

    here is the video on the tesla:


    https://youtu.be/521Vuoa2p2g
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: marsadayhttps://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SMFSTWIFI.html
    That, like most of these things, uses a central service. If said central service disappears you won't be able to control the device remotely. Probably not from your Android/iOS device even if you're in the house.

    Given the way most people's networks work it's not surprising; direct connection from a mobile phone to a device behind a NAT router is tricky.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2022
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesGiven the way most people's networks work it's not surprising; direct connection from a mobile phone to a device behind a NAT router is tricky.
    Exactly. The manufacturers all seem to assume that everybody wants to be able to control things from the beach in Malaga or wherever, rather than just being able to control it from somewhere else in the house. The assumption isn't true. :cry:
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    An arguably less smart way of controlling the hot water would be to use a movement sensor to power the immersion if the flat was occupied. No need to remember to switch the HW off when the tenants leave and youre on the beach
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    Incidentally I saw something recently that said WundaSmart controllers etc pride themselves on not requiring an internet connection. They will keep on working as long as the local wi-fi is there. So it might be worth looking at them.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    Posted By: philedgeAn arguably less smart way of controlling the hot water would be to use a movement sensor to power the immersion if the flat was occupied.
    The problem is that you need the immersion to be on before the guests arrive. Paying guests might want to shower when they arrive without having to wait for a few hours.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    I have fitted a 16A contactor and a Sonoff Basic with Tasmota flashed. All local, but remote control available via Home Assistant remote service.

    13A smart socket on an immersion is IMHO a risk.

    Remember to allow for manual override if a holiday let. It's what folk expect unless there is always hot water available when let.
    • CommentAuthorGareth J
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    Posted By: borpinI have fitted a 16A contactor and a Sonoff Basic with Tasmota flashed. All local, but remote control available via Home Assistant remote service.

    13A smart socket on an immersion is IMHO a risk.

    Remember to allow for manual override if a holiday let. It's what folk expect unless there is always hot water available when let.


    Other than early failure, is it a risk? Surely they are 13A fuse protected? Either way, if going that route, I'd probably fire via a 16 or 20A relay to take the load off the plug.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: djhThe problem is that you need the immersion to be on before the guests arrive. Paying guests might want to shower when they arrive without having to wait for a few hours.


    But youve got the same problem manually switching remotely if you forget to do it? Our immersion heats the top of the tank pretty quickly, maybe 15 mins, so I wouldnt see it as a problem if the heater comes on as guests walk through the door.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    Posted By: borpin13A smart socket on an immersion is IMHO a risk.
    Agreed, from memory aren't immersions usually connected via a separate fused connection unit rather than a plug? I think that's the rule.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    Posted By: philedgeBut youve got the same problem manually switching remotely if you forget to do it?
    Well if you think you're likely to forget you could always generate the remote command from the accountancy system that handle the bookings :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2022
     
    Posted By: borpinI have fitted a 16A contactor and a Sonoff Basic with Tasmota flashed. All local, but remote control available via Home Assistant remote service.
    Similarly, I've chosen a Shelly Pro 4PM for control. It has various switching options - manually using buttons on the device, pre-programming on the device, remotely via the Shelly app, or remotely via Home Assistant or similar using NodeRed +Mqtt. WiFi, Bluetooth & Ethernet connections can be used. Several Shelly models have been successfully flashed with Tasmota, so chances are that the 4PM can be too, for another option.

    Rather than switching the immersion directly, the Shelly will control a Crydom CKRA2430, which has much more headroom to handle the load.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2022
     
    Posted By: Gareth JOther than early failure, is it a risk? Surely they are 13A fuse protected?
    Lots of pictures of burned out smart plugs - I just wouldn't risk it - What would the insurance loss inspector say... Often Immersions are 16A anyway.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2022
     
    Posted By: Gareth JOther than early failure, is it a risk? Surely they are 13A fuse protected?
    Indeed, but the question is whether they're really 13 amp rated. I have a couple of Sonoff TH16s (nominally 16 A rating) used for switching (fridge and central heating so pretty low current). The ones I have (version 2.1) appear reasonably well built but some pre-2.0 versions were distinctly marginal with the current going through PCB tracks which weren't that thick. Even so I'm not overly happy with the cable clamps which are a tight fit for decently chunky cable so I personally wouldn't want to use them on any circuit with less protection than a 5 or 6 amp fuse or breaker.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2022
     
    Posted By: djhWell if you think you're likely to forget you could always generate the remote command from the accountancy system that handle the bookings


    Now that would be a smarter smart setup.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2022
     
    Anyone used Heat miser ?

    Spoke to them today and they have a range called NEO.

    The Neostat EV2 is the unit i need and it is 16amp.

    I will need to buy the Neohub gen 2, which communicates withe the wi fi. All in it looks about £170 for the two units.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: marsadayAll in it looks about £170 for the two units.
    I've got one of their early dumb systems here.

    Personally I wouldn't as it probably relies on their 'cloud' service so when they go bust you are high and dry. And £170 is an eye-watering cost. However, it looks like it will do the job for you.

    Pay your money; take your choice.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2022
     
    I see. I will have a look at what you have written about sonoff basic. Not sure what it is but will google it tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2022
     
    Posted By: marsadayI see. I will have a look at what you have written about sonoff basic. Not sure what it is but will google it tomorrow.
    For your situation, I think the heatmiser is probably the right choice; relatively simple to install and use. Just be aware of the limitations of the solution. Everything is a compromise.

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