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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2022
     
    What ho one and all,

    When we built, we bought all the kitchen bits and bobs from Ikea and that included the under cupboard lights, which a some kinda mini-florescent tube.

    Recently, one annoyingly, switches off after a couple of minutes. Figuring it is the tube, I found they are virtually no longer available, but did bust the bank to buy two replacement tubes at around ÂŁ20 a shot! Unfortunately, that did not cure the problem. Perhaps it's the the ballast or whatever, which will be impossible to find.

    So considering replace all the under cupboard lights with an Ikea LED (https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/mittled-led-kitchen-worktop-lighting-strip-dimmable-white-90528568/) or similar.

    At the moment, there are a total of five lights, all linked (daisy chained) one after the other as the directions offered.

    But an LED replacement will need a driver. Is this one driver into which, each lamp individually plugs, or can the lights be daisy chained together supplied by one driver? Or is is one individual driver for each lamp?

    Thanks and toodle pip
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2022
     
    Had you considered buying a length of Aluminium LED carrier strip with clip in diffuser, plus a length of LED strip light and a single mini driver for the lot. There are lots to chose from, both the carriers and the LED strip. here are a couple of suppliers:-

    https://marcled.com/24-led-aluminium-profiles

    https://mkshop.co.uk/led-strip-lights/aluminium-led-profile/
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2022 edited
     
    Thanks for the links; that is an interesting idea. So one driver and the whole length should work?

    Don't tell my wife that I am posting a photo of the kitchen, but how does one link the differing heights? Of course, cabling is already installed but I have no idea how adds cable to these LED strips.
      20220716_192609 (Small).jpg
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2022 edited
     
    I'm guessing the lights will be behind the front cabinet down-stand.
    To provide a single connecting cable run you'd drill up into the cabinet and through the cabinet sides with something like a 5/6mm drill bit. The LED strip supplier will be able to provide pre made LED strip snap-connectors with a cable tail attached. All you'd have to do is crimp the tails together from one to the next inside the cabinet and then hide the cable in micro self adhesive trunking. The smallest trunking I've seen is 9mm x 5mm. Any reputable supplier will advise on the driver required for your particular strip length and type.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2022
     
    Or you can probably reuse the existing wiring, perhaps by reconfiguring it. But without knowing all the details it's difficult to be sure what would work.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2022
     
    Thanks. Yes, the current lighting is behind the cabinet downstands and the connecting wiring is routed into a slot cut in the cabinet sides and covered by the dressing panel.

    Probably not able to use the existing wiring as it has little plugs at each end that fit the existing lights and will certainly not fit anything else (that would be too simple; let's redesign so the consumer has to buy everything again!) But a reasonably easy fix.

    Given that the total LED length would be only 3m, would one driver at the start supply the required power so that the last LED strip would be the same brightness or would I have to arrange something else with extra wiring?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2022
     
    That's good news that the cable runs are already established.
    One driver should cope with a 3M run but ultimately it depends on the LED output you'll need to discuss that with the LED tape and driver supplier.
    Get it supplied in one length and cut it yourself, they have cut points marked on the tape so over order a little to allow wastage. If you buy the snap connector tails you'll be able to cut the 4? x lengths required and connect up, and test it on the bench before fitting.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2022
     
    Posted By: RexProbably not able to use the existing wiring as it has little plugs at each end that fit the existing lights and will certainly not fit anything else (that would be too simple; let's redesign so the consumer has to buy everything again!) But a reasonably easy fix.
    Cutting the connectors off counts as 'reconfiguring' in my book :) You might be able to buy the connectors though. Most of them are standards of one sort or another; the difficulty is just recognizing the right one.
  1.  
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314073611609
    Hundreds of other sellers on eBay. You want the 2-pin connectors for white led tapes. Lots of connection options for pre-wired, right angle, tees, whatever. Obviously suitable for 12v only.

    Often good value to buy a kit of led tape, driver, wires wires etc etc

    If you are wiring the driver up to the mains, check its fuse rating, if it's less than the MCB of the lighting supply then use a fused connection box.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022 edited
     
    Just looking at TLC LED tape and the is this in the Q&A:
    Q) Can I connect the tape together to form a loop?
    A) Yes you can. This will even the brightness out on the LEDS across the 5m length

    Do I therefore assume that a cable from the end of the run, returned to (where?) will ensure that everything is at full and even brightness?

    My other question, apart from install and see, how would I know if the brightness is sufficient or maybe, too great?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022
     
    Simply cut at the marked cut points and connect the other end to the driver. Provided you cut accurately between the dots it will work. You can seal the cut end if you wish. When doing several cut lengths just daisy chain them.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: RexTLC LED tape
    Not sure which product you're looking at but the pages I just looked at don't include basic specs such as colour temperature or CRI so I'd be very cautious about buying them. Let alone lumens versus wattage! (edit to say - the last is the information you need to know how bright they are).

    If they can be connected in a loop then it means they're voltage driven and all the LEDs are wired in parallel. Just like a ring main. Since LEDs are current-operated I don't know how such circuits work. Does anybody know? Do they have resistors in series with each LED? That sounds very inefficient.
  2.  
    I have 3m daisy chain and it all looks even brightness to me. A single run of tape gives plenty of light for under cupboards.

    The tape is marked with cut points and with the + and - wires printed on it, just snip it off to length, clip on the connector, peel the backing off and stick it into place. If it's behind the pelmet then it doesn't need a diffuser.
  3.  
    DJH - ours seems to have groups of 3 SMD LEDs in series with a 150ohm SMD resistor, that group is repeated down the tape, all the groups are in parallel with each other between the +12V and - conductors which run down each edge of the tape.

    If we guess 2.5V forward voltage across each LED and 1V voltage drop in the conductors, that leaves (12 - 3*2.5 -1) = 3.5V across each resistor, so it will set the current to 3.5/150= 23mA which seems about right. So 3.5/12 = 30% of the power is wasted in the resistors.

    https://www.instyleled.co.uk/support/what-are-the-differences-between-types-of-led-chip/ suggests their basic led stickytape is 5W and 350 lumens per m, so that's 70 lumens per W. Not record-breaking, but the efficiency comes in from it just illuminating the worktop , rather than the whole room.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    All LED Tape I've used is made up of lots of individual circuits marked by the cut points. As I said, just cut one end and join the other to the driver, don't over complicate.
    I admit, I've never seen any that need to be wired like a ring main, why you'd need anything like that I don't know.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenDJH - ours seems to have groups of 3 SMD LEDs in series with a 150ohm SMD resistor, that group is repeated down the tape, all the groups are in parallel with each other between the +12V and - conductors which run down each edge of the tape.

    If we guess 2.5V forward voltage across each LED and 1V voltage drop in the conductors, that leaves (12 - 3*2.5 -1) = 3.5V across each resistor, so it will set the current to 3.5/150= 23mA which seems about right. So 3.5/12 = 30% of the power is wasted in the resistors.

    https://www.instyleled.co.uk/support/what-are-the-differences-between-types-of-led-chip/ suggests their basic led stickytape is 5W and 350 lumens per m, so that's 70 lumens per W. Not record-breaking, but the efficiency comes in from it just illuminating the worktop , rather than the whole room.

    Thanks for that info. Wasting 30% of the power seems like quite a lot to me. The difference between 70 lumens/W and the over 100 lumens/W from T5 tubes was one of the things that drove me to fluorescent initially. The fittings for tubes include reflectors. I wonder why they don't make LED tapes with series-connected LEDs, although I suppose you'd need a smarter current driver and some method of connecting to both ends of the tape.

    Posted By: owlmanI admit, I've never seen any that need to be wired like a ring main, why you'd need anything like that I don't know.
    I don't think you NEED to connect both ends, just that you can, and doing so would help to even out any voltage differences. But I'd think it would be pretty marginal, I agree.
  4.  
    The SI definition of the Lumen is apparently redefined on the power (in the SI sense) contained in the electromagnetic light radiation, such that

    683 Lumens == 1 Watt (of a particular visible wavelength)

    So both LEDs and fluoro tubes still have some margins for further improvement.....

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_redefinition_of_the_SI_base_units
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2022 edited
     
    The 683 is at the eye's most sensitive frequency, so I think any white light is bound to be apparently less efficient, but I'm too lazy to work out by how much :bigsmile:

    I see in the same article that cool white 2835 LEDs have a better efficiency of 108 lumens/W versus the 5050's 75 lumens/W. Daylight will be slightly better, I believe. (edit: apparently not - they use 'cool white' in a different, more logical, way to everybody else. They use it to mean 6500+K whereas everybody else uses it for 4000K and uses 'daylight' for 6500K, whilst Instyle use 'pure white' to mean 4000+K). Very interesting site, BTW, thanks for the link!

    Also elsewhere on that site is a drawing showing that daisy-chaining metre lengths of tape can lead to uneven brightness, so they recommend wiring the metre lengths in parallel.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2022
     
    Giving some though to the best way to replace the current florescent and come up with a brilliant idea!!!

    The attached photo is the current Ikea florescent lighting strip, of which there are five. The challenge will be to replace the wiring which is routed (sandwiched) between the cabinet side and the eternal dressing panel. Not impossible to remove the panels but the end cabinet is screwed to the wall .....!

    I now thinking, rather than replacing everything, strip the electrics from inside each unit (ballast, etc), apply the LED strip to the reflector and solder a connection from the plug to the LED. Of course, a new LED driver at the mains end, then replace the diffusion cover. Everything stays the same, presumably should have sufficient light and they will all work.

    Minimal cost and remedial work. Only downside is the LED will not cover the entire length of each cabinet but that would not be a problem.
      20220721_172407 (Small).jpg
  5.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Rex</cite>I now thinking, rather than replacing everything, strip the electrics from inside each unit (ballast, etc), apply the LED strip to the reflector and solder a connection from the plug to the LED. Of course, a new LED driver at the mains end, then replace the diffusion cover. Everything stays the same, presumably should have sufficient light and they will all work.

    Minimal cost and remedial work. Only downside is the LED will not cover the entire length of each cabinet but that would not be a problem.</blockquote>

    That's a pretty good idea - I was having trouble finding decent outdoor lights and got some bargain ES lamps and converted to 24V LED Strip. It doesn't need to look pretty inside as you never see it.

    Just to note that I'm really impressed with the quality of Ikeas LED lighting - they're much better than most of the other stuff I've seen that isn't much more expensive.

    I've got a few bits of their under cabinet lighting mounted in different places now. It's all sold with their connecters on and they do a load of smart home/wireless switching etc but the lamp units themselves just need 24V so you can snip the connectors off and connect to your own drivers. (one caveat being the last time I looked there was a 'last chance to buy' on some items so they may have done their usual thing of redesigning at lower quality to keep the price the same).

    I haven't used them, but these under cabinet panels looked particularly cool - https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/irsta-led-worktop-lighting-opal-white-10406943/
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2022
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Rex</cite>But an LED replacement will need a driver. Is this one driver into which, each lamp individually plugs, or can the lights be daisy chained together supplied by one driver? Or is is one individual driver for each lamp?</blockquote>

    Ikea page says..

    "To be completed with TRĂ…DFRI LED driver, VĂ…GDAL connection cord and FĂ–RNIMMA power supply cord, sold separately."

    https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/tradfri-driver-for-wireless-control-grey-60342656/

    Photo shows how its connected.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2022
     
    Thanks for the comments. Have not actually visited Ikea in some time but will check out the LED lights.

    Need to visit as some of our kitchen doors and drawers are looking a little the worse for wear. Would be nice to just do a straight replacement, but easier said than done as the door style and colour we have is no longer 'available.' Or more specifically and just to confuse everyone, it probably is but under a different name.

    Difficult to tell from the internet.
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