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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2022
     
    Did anybody else watch the Panorama programme "The Green Energy Scandal"?

    Increased carbon emissions, primary forest destroyed and you and I paying for it.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2022
     
    Yes, I did. Not happy viewing £6bn subsidy already and wanting more.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2022
     
    I always thought that it was wildly optimistic to think that the amount of pellets that the Drax power plant would consume could be manufactured solely from waste sawdust.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2022
     
    I expected it to be pretty bad and it turns out to be much worse.
    The point made that it actually emits more CO2 than even a coal plant, in the worst time window, i.e. the coming 2-4 decades, is not something I had thought of before.
    And when it shuts down eventually, somebody somewhere will have to sustainably manage a rather substantial forest for up to 40 years.
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: bhommelsThe point made that it actually emits more CO2 than even a coal plant

    I didn't watch the programme, but is that assertion based on the assumption that the wood pellets / chip / sawdust would somehow not degrade and emit just as much CO2 if it wasn't burned?

    Panorama is occasionally partial to a bit of smoke and mirrors to exaggerate a point. Went downhill in the last few years IMHO.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2022
     
    Posted By: neelpeel
    Posted By: bhommelsThe point made that it actually emits more CO2 than even a coal plant

    I didn't watch the programme, but is that assertion based on the assumption that the wood pellets / chip / sawdust would somehow not degrade and emit just as much CO2 if it wasn't burned?

    Panorama is occasionally partial to a bit of smoke and mirrors to exaggerate a point. Went downhill in the last few years IMHO.

    There was absolutely a bit of a mixup of arguments in the panorama episode. The point they were making was that primary forest was being cut down for Drax. The collateral was a quote on the carbon intensity from the MIT guy featuring. I can well imagine the carbon intensity of a kWh from coal being less than wood though: thermal efficiency, water content, etc.
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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2022
     
    Posted By: neelpeelI didn't watch the programme, but is that assertion based on the assumption that the wood pellets / chip / sawdust would somehow not degrade and emit just as much CO2 if it wasn't burned?
    I expect it's on iplayer so you can still watch it :) I think the assumption is that cutting down old growth primary forest is a bad idea, especially when you claim you don't do it.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2022 edited
     
    I only came into this documentary for the last 5 minutes.
    They showed a juggernaut pulling into the USA Drax site with a load of timber, it looked very much like the tops of trees which has no commercial timber usage. They then showed drone footage of a cropped stand of what appeared to be plantation softwood, and then started waxing lyrical about old growth.
    If I'm correct they really need to get their facts right. If it is plantation grown timber, then it's simply a crop to be harvested and eventually new trees planted.
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2022
     
    Posted By: owlmanwhich has no commercial timber usage


    Posted By: owlmanIf it is plantation grown timber, then it's simply a crop to be harvested and eventually new trees planted.


    I didn't watch the programme as I've been a follower of the Drax issues for several years at least and known on a few occasions to include the name in threads here as an example, but with this there are a couple of issues.

    The concept of non commercial timber usage plays into the hands of those large crop-plantation corporates who argue that established old growth forests can be consumed in order to make way for more plantations - what they obviously don't understand or more likely very well do understand by try to avoid, is the damage to the wider forest ecosystem that comes from destroying this kind of forest. It's a shame the Panorama documentary didn't take their investigations further to look at how old forest are being destroyed even in 'protected' areas within the EU and especially ex Eastern bloc countries, or maybe they did?

    The second issue is the question of the environmental impact of the plantation forests themselves. We're beginning to understand how detrimental they are again to wider forest ecosystems and carbon capture therefore it is highly questionable whether these plantations are in fact environmentally friendly at all. Studies have suggested they're the opposite and are becoming net contributors to climate change.
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2022
     
    Posted By: SimonDStudies have suggested they're the opposite and are becoming net contributors to climate change.

    Do you have any that you can link? I would be interested in having a read.
    It's clear how the eco-systems in general can be devastated, but it's not obvious (to me at least!) how they can be a net contributor to climate change. Thanks.
    • CommentAuthorSimonD
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2022
     
    Posted By: neelpeel
    Posted By: SimonDStudies have suggested they're the opposite and are becoming net contributors to climate change.

    Do you have any that you can link? I would be interested in having a read.
    It's clear how the eco-systems in general can be devastated, but it's not obvious (to me at least!) how they can be a net contributor to climate change. Thanks.


    Here's a couple of links to start you off but there is quite a bit out there now on this.

    Some research in Nature from a few years back that suggests:

    "Meta-analyses imply that native forest replacement usually reduces SOC stocks and may switch the forest from a net sink to a net source of atmospheric carbon."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19693

    There's also been a number of articles, one of which was published by the Guardian about carbon neutrality within the European biomass industry: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/14/carbon-neutrality-is-a-fairy-tale-how-the-race-for-renewables-is-burning-europes-forests
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2022
     
    Thanks for the links.

    So as I read it (skim read, granted)...it's the replacement of old forest with new plantation that is the main issue.
    I don't think it's any surprise that old forest is a better carbon sink than plantation as it will be 'laying down' carbon over time.

    But it sounds like there is also a soil degradation issue over time. Which...on a very basic level... I assume means that 'some' of the carbon generated by the trees is taken from the ground rather than the air. Meaning that growing the trees then burning the wood is not carbon neutral as we are using up carbon from the ground. Right?
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