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General: Lead soaker(s) - can it be long lengths of lead? Or must it be short sections?

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    Hi

    I'm going to be having some roof work done. The lead needs replacing and doing properly where a lower roof meets a wall (it slopes down the side of the wall... ASIDE - what's it called where a roof meets a wall like this?).

    The chap doing it has proposed to put in long overlapping lengths of lead beneath all the slates (I think around 1.5m lengths each). And then lengths of around 1m flashing on top of the slates.

    All the info and videos I can find say to use small soakers that are the same length as the slates, and sit on top one slate/covered by the next.

    I'm worried that the way the chap has proposed to do it is wrong, as I can't find anything that recommends doing it like that. In case it changes anything, he is planning to put a bell bead on the wall above the lead.

    Sorry if I've not explained that very well... It's be a long day!

    Many thanks
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2022 edited
     
    Posted By: greenfingerAll the info and videos I can find say to use small soakers that are the same length as the slates, and sit on top one slate/covered by the next.

    Yes, this is how it should be done, in code 3 (or code 4) lead. They replace the tile that would otherwise be there if there was no abutment (the word you're looking for).

    I'd go elsewhere.
  3.  
    Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts Mike.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2022
     
    I think the soakers need to be the gauge plus headlamp. Always sit on the top half of the tile or slate

    A secret gutter can be longer, as long as the thickness of the lead will allow .

    Soakers are much more important than flashings as they keep water from going over the edge of the tiles or slates.

    For plain tiles I use 150mm long soakers, for 500mm long slates I use 200mm lap + 100 headlap = 300mm
  5.  
    Really recommend the Fixmyroof channel guy on YouTube for explaining anything like this. He has videos about lead soakers, different styles of flashings, secret gutters etc etc
  6.  
    Thank you tony.

    And you too WilllnAberdeen. I have been watching his videos and love them. So well explained. "Thanks tot the powers of photoshop..." etc :)
  7.  
    Hello again

    I forgot to add photos when I posted, sorry about that! I'll add some now so the job can be visualised. They are not the best but I can get some more if needed. See below.

    Do you think the removed lead in the photos would be suitable for the flashing? It's 240mm and Code 4 (I think), but a bit chewed up on one side from where I removed it from the cement fillet. It's also a but curved and bent. My thinking was to have the soakers done in new Code 3 and re-use the existing if possible. But if not I'll get new lead for the flashings too and stop being so tight :wink:
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      IMG_20220806_165155944.jpg
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    Greenfinger - The way this job would be approached here is that long lengths of 'L' shaped flashing would be placed under the slates, returning up the wall. The horizontal portion of the flashing that is under the slates / tiles is typically 10cm wide and turns back on itself at the edge to contain any water on the flashing and prevent said water from flowing off the flashing. The top of the vertical part is usually angled (bent) towards the wall slightly to help the water seal there.

    The flashing is available in 2 m lengths and overlaps at joins
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    Think that is called a secret gutter here, and is available in GRP.

    https://youtu.be/zLCKHr3a1e4

    Trad old houses in this part of scotland don't have much lead, unless they are high status buildings. The abutment is done with a wide cement fillet which needs replacing every so often, the roofers do replace them with lead or GRP now.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2022 edited
     
    Guess you're leaving those slates in place, but cut slate-and-a-halfs should have been used so that all the slates abut the wall; you shouldn't be able to see the nails.

    You can overcome that by using extra wide soakers where necessary; that is, 100mm (the standard width) + the width of the missing portion of the slate (so up to 150mm or so, from those pictures). If you add on the typically 75mm upstand against the wall, you'd be wanting to cut them out of perhaps 225mm wide lead (150+75) instead of 175mm (100+75).

    Posted By: greenfingerDo you think the removed lead in the photos would be suitable for the flashing? It's 240mm and Code 4 (I think), but a bit chewed up on one side from where I removed it from the cement fillet
    You'd need to trim off the distorted portion, so it would end up narrower (too narrow?). You'd also need to check the condition - cracks, corrosion, malleability. Personally I'd take it to a recycler and use the cheque to subsidise buying new.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2022
     
    I quite like the Victorian idea of ‘tillers’ round where I live we have loads of slate roofs, they sometimes use mortar fillets but often with zinc soakers that decay.

    Tilters are very clever and are a fillet of wood or a lath that goes on the rafter next to an abutment or chimney and slightly tips up the end of the batten, this in turn causes water on the slates to run away fron the abutment! Simple
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2022 edited
     
    Agree with will; you either do soakers or a secret gutter. Long lengths of lead formed into a gutter shape before the horizontal battens go on, and hidden entirely beneath the slate would be a secret gutter. I prefer soakers because there isn't so much of a consequence if they block up with detritus (leaves that turn to soil, building dust from the wall and other wind blown crap etc) and they're always felling their water back out onto the roof surface. Once a gutter takes on the water it has to carry it all the way to the eaves.

    In those pics those nail holes seem very much in the wrong place; water spreads out sideways on the surface of a slate as well as running down. Even if slivers of slate were cut to cover those nails they could still admit water because they're just too near the perp line of the adjacent slate. The slates to the right of the nails should be wider leftwards, or (on slates wide enough to take it) the nails should be more leftwards so they're further under a sliver. It's a bit marginal though when you consider that normally a nail is at least 3 inches away from the perp that lets water onto its slate..

    ..but what really bothers me is that I can't see the gutter either; I'd expect to see the left edge of it being run up the wall some way. The apron flashings are then chased in above it and come down over it. You either have a single chase line or you step it (see attached)
      38BA6A6A-FFA9-4F38-8359-C7626FFF10EA.jpeg
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2022 edited
     
    Oh, is that pic the old roof you're changing? I thought it'd all been slated back in and you're just looking at how to refit that flashing.. Phew


    "flashing on top of the slates"

    Flashing doesn't really go visibly on top of slates except where there is a horizontal break in the roof such as at the bottom of a roof window, or sudden change of slope in a pitch (including verticals like roof slope meets chimney front). The rest of the time the aim is generally to hide it. If that big long line of lead in your photo was originally embedded in the wall but then splurged out across the slates, hiding all those nails, it would be quite an unusual (ugly) detail.

    "if not I'll get new lead for the flashings too and stop being so tight :wink:"

    Well, if it's worth doing once.. agree with the point about recycling it, you might get a third of the price of new for the weigh in. Don't forget that these days there are lead alternatives such as Leadax, or hay cost less then lead and are non toxic; something to be said for looking at material alternatives that aren't quite so environmentally poisonous. If you fit new lead make sure it gets patination oiled before atmospheric moisture/dew/rain gets to it. Wet lead develops unsightly white lead carbonate rather than slate grey lead oxide, and the carbonate being slightly water soluble then washes off and stains everything else over years of rain.. (and it's poisonous)

    While on the "don't cheap out" theme, consider copper nails instead of galv. They might be 7 times the price but it's usually a small percentage of the total job and not a saving in the grand scheme of things
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2022
     
    "this in turn causes water on the slates to run away fron the abutment" - Tony

    Though that wouldn't remove the need for soakers or a gutter
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2022 edited
     
    The great thing about secret gutters is that it can result in much less of an upstand being visible. In the excellent pic above, the "75mm overlap" only needs to rise above the secret gutter floor, not above the top of the slating. So the stepped cover flashing can be 75mm lower down. Stepped flashings are often grossly tall up the wall/chimney stack - ugly.

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