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General: Insulation

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2022
     
    What ho one and all,

    I have a two bed first floor maisonette that we rent out. It is double glazed, original (minimal) loft insulation, an old Potterton boiler that does not go wrong. The gable wall is cavity insulated, the front and back are not as the external wall is tile hung.

    I read in today's paper that new legislation will require me to achieve a minimum EPC level to be able to continue to rent it out.

    Certainly, the loft could be improved relatively easily but at a cost to storage space as the floor level would have to be raised.

    The boiler would cost an arm and a leg as it is currently internally and new boilers (I believe) have to be on an external wall which would imply a virtually complete new plumbing.

    When the elderly couple on the ground floor took advantage of a government scheme to subsidise the cavity wall insulation, they took up the offer and I had to pay for the first floor gable wall to be done, as the insulation company would not do half the wall. But they would not insulate my front and back as the walls are tile hung.

    Given that I do not want to replace the old boiler as it is regularly serviced and never goes wrong, and that the external tile hung walls will be are very difficult (expensive?) to insulate, what am I , and I guess, many, many others expected to do to achieve the EPC level?

    Thanks and have a Cool Yule
  2.  
    That requirement was announced back in 2020, so lots of other landlords have already thought about it and written stuff up, look at landlord forums. If you have a lettings agent, ask them for advice.

    Do you have a current EPC? (legal requirement)? It will have a list of recommended improvements on the back and will say what level each will get you to. If it's an old one then get it updated and ask the assessor for advice while they visit. If there are similar flats nearby, you can download their EPCs to see what insulation they have and what level it gets them classed as.

    But a condensing boiler with good controls and a load of loft insulation would be good starting points, while you work out how to insulate the walls (EWI with tiles replaced over?)

    Replacing the boiler might be tax deductible (maintenance). If your tenants qualify, then you can get ECO funding to pay for the other upgrades. (Or even if they don't qualify, from next year aiui).

    Edit to add: while we were renting, the ancient internal boiler failed in a spectacular fashion and was replaced with a wall-mounted model, the additional couple of pipe runs were not really a big part of the cost (especially compared to repairing the smoke damage!).

    Further edit: does it have solar PV fitted? That earns lots of points under the old rdSAP 2012 version which is still used for EPCs.
  3.  
    Posted By: RexThe boiler would cost an arm and a leg as it is currently internally and new boilers (I believe) have to be on an external wall which would imply a virtually complete new plumbing.

    I have a rented out flat and the modern gas boiler (now 2 years old) has the balanced flue up and out through the roof. The boiler is in a corner of the kitchen and the flue goes up through the first floor in the corner of the room and is boxed in. The installer thought this was easier than putting the flue through the 50cm stone wall and have the attendant problems of window / tree / other wall proximity issues. Could your new boiler flue also go up through the roof enabling minimum plumbing disruption?
    Oh and son in law had to replace the gas boiler in his rented out flat and the old boiler flue went up a chimney - no problem they installed a balanced flue in the chimney - a bit expensive but the cheaper of the other alternatives.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeDec 19th 2022
     
    Posted By: Rexwhat am I , and I guess, many, many others expected to do to achieve the EPC level?


    As youve likely already worked out, options are-sell up or stick your hand in your pocket!

    Get a couple of plumbers to look at the boiler in the spring and they'll let you know what your options are.

    Loft insulation is straight forward and relatively cheap to install.

    Unless the outer leaf of the tile hung wall is set in to give flush tile hanging, it's likely the CWI people wouldnt do the tile hung sections as they dont want to damage your tiles. Get a roofer to remove the tiles so the CWI guys can get in to drill the injection holes. If the outer leaf of the wall is set in, therell be negligible cavity to fill so EWI or IWI with the cavity sealed up
  5.  
    I think the option for many landlord will be a box ticking small PV system.
    Ive had several enquires already but am trying to talk them into putting something more viable up in terms of effort and investment.
    ECO4 includes solar , those on certain benefits and incomes below £30k can apply , this includes tenants.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2022
     
    Took a deep breath and dived into my files; transpires that I do have an EPC rating of D54.

    With the exception of a new boiler, all other recommendations would only take me a little higher up the D rating.

    A new boiler would go well into C. The current Potteron has the flue through the loft in a brick chimney. Is it not possible to install a replacement boiler in the same, internal location?

    What about an electric boiler?

    Regarding loft insulation, at the moment, it is probably the original; around 4" set in the joist with a plank flooring. Rather than removing all the planks, could I put 4" joists onto the existing planks, add insulation and then board it with the regular chipboard flooring?
  7.  
    The EPC rating is (stupidly) the £ cost of heating, not the kWh or emissions. So electric boilers score worse EPC than gas, electricity is more expensive.

    As was mentioned, you might be able to add a balanced flue up through the chimney or ceiling. You might also need to add a drain pipe for the condensate underneath the floor. It might be cheaper than all that to move the boiler to an outside wall, the fitter will advise you when they quote.

    You'll want 300-400mm total thickness of loft insulation, the new chipboard floor can be raised above it on loft legs (bought, or make your own). Is there a gap for air to blow underneath the existing loft flooring, if not I don't see why not leave it in place. Or lift and reuse some of it, to save lugging new chipboards up the stairs.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2022
     
    Thanks for the thoughts.

    I would guess that a new boiler would have to be moved as the current one is in an internal cupboard with a flue chimney.

    But now thinking that if I have to replace it, perhaps an electric boiler is the way to go.

    As for the loft flooring, don't think I would go as far as 400mm as that would restrict the loft head room. Perhaps a kinda token normal loft roll as additional insulation.

    One of the thing that is not on the EPC list would involve re-sealing all the window surrounds as whenever they were installed, they leak badly so assume very poor workmanship.
  9.  
    Posted By: RexI would guess that a new boiler would have to be moved as the current one is in an internal cupboard with a flue chimney.

    No reason why you can't have the new boiler in the cupboard with a vertical balanced flue following the existing route (assuming it is straight)
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2022
     
    Rex how long has your tenant been in situ ?

    Your are currently breaking rental rules by not providing your tenant with the EPC certificate. I would do it next week and then it is done. Have you also provided your tenant with the right to rent booklet ? Again more regs. Have you got your 5 yr electrical check certificate showing the electrics are all ok ? Have you now got your carbon monoxide test in the room with your boiler ? Have you also got your smoke alarm system ?

    I assume you will get your annual gas cert done, but a lot of regs have come in in the last few years. The latest is the carbon monoxide alarm which is needed in a room with a gas boiler. This came in, in Oct 2022.

    Your property will easily get to a C and a new condensing boiler will probably do it. The EPC C requirement is due to come in for 2025 (new tenancies) and 2028 for exisiting tenancies. However, I was watching a presentation last summer by the RLA and the date has been put back to 2026.
  11.  
    >>> "electric boilers score worse EPC than gas, electricity is more expensive"

    IE a new electric boiler will make your EPC worse than it already is with your old gas boiler. Could push you down to an E rating, so you would have to rip it out again before the new regs come into force.
  12.  
    Any particular reason why you need headroom in a loft? If it's just used for the tenant to store their Xmas decorations, then just board out say a 6' square under the apex and lay 400mm deep fibreglass everywhere else. Insulate under the boarded area with PIR.

    Or is there some other usage happening in the loft that needs lots of headroom?

    Edit to add: fibreglass comes in a range of grades, the stuff in DIY stores has a worse insulation performance (0.042 W/mK) than the highest-end stuff sold for timber frame walls (0.032), so the thickness can adjust in proportion to that.
    If you use high performance fibre, leave the wrapper in the loft for the EPC assessor, they have to be able to see things to believe in them.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2022
     
    Apparently waste water heat recovery can now get a couple of rdSAP points for £500

    https://zypho.uk/zypho-solutions/zypho-retrofit-heat-recovery-installation-epc-score/
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2023
     
    And if adding extra timber as well as insulation in the loft, do check the existing structure is strong enough to bear the weight along with whatever the tenant can put up there.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2023
     
    Posted By: marsadayYou're are currently breaking rental rules
    That does depend on where in the UK as the various regulations do vary.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2023
     
    No need to have full headroom but it is a large loft with excellent storage space so it is a shame to reduce the unnecessarily.

    Don't think the tenants have anything heavy stored; the biggest problem is the lounge / dinning area is quite a large room so the existing joists are essentially all that was needed in 1960 when built. There had never been any evidence of the ceiling sagging. Most of what is stored is above a supporting wall.

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