Green Building Forum - LED developments

LED developments

djh — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 18:04:08 +0000

I just became aware of some new lamps by my favourite manufaturer - Crompton.

They are GLS lamps and supposedly have an efficiency of over 200 lm/W. I haven't heard of anything that high before.
https://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/crompton-lamps-ultra-efficient-led-gls-2.2w-b22-a-class-5-pack-warm-white-clear-40w-eqv-/

Whilst looking for further details I found another product I haven't seen before: T5 LED tubes intended for retrofitting in existing fittings (with the ballast bypassed). There are T8 tubes as well. e.g. https://www.cromptonlamps.com/Catalogue/LED/T5/LED-T5-Full-Glass-Tube-3ft-Direct-to-Mains-240V-AC-12W-4000K-G5-12097

LED developments

Simon Still — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 19:04:36 +0000

that's interesting - I'd thought those 'filament' LED lamps were a bit of a bodge but really impressive they're getting that sort of efficiency out of them. I *think* the drivers might be a lot simpler.

I was looking at Philips replacement tubes this week - https://www.lighting.philips.com/main/products/led-tube.

The Crompton ones need you to rewire your fitting and remove the ballast whereas Phillips seem to have various options that will work with traditional starters, modern electronic ballasts or rewired to run direct (and as a result many manufacturers are now selling they're 'old mould' lights fitted with the new direct mount bulbs. Performance on these seems to be better than the last generation of purpose built LED fittings.
https://www.lighting.philips.com/main/products/led-tube

LED developments

WillInAberdeen — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:24:11 +0000

Interesting from the Philips catalogue:

"Fluorescent lights are soon going to be
a thing of the past. The Reduction of
Hazardous Substances (RoHS) directive of
the European Union restricts the use ...
of mercury in lighting products. In addition,
due to the Single Lighting Regulation
(SLR), products that fail to meet efficiency
requirements are being phased out August
2023."

Edit: and the LED tubes put out light in a more useful beam angle than the fluorescents.

Another edit: more here - good news. I'd completely missed hearing about this.

"Todayâ€™s plans also include a ban from September [2022?2023?] on the sale of lighting fixtures with fixed bulbs that canâ€™t be replaced â€“ meaning the fixtures have to be thrown away."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/end-of-halogen-light-bulbs-spells-brighter-and-cleaner-future
Has this actually happened?

LED developments

djh — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 20:50:06 +0000

Yes, I'd thought the filament types were made for 'fashion victims'. It looks like they're currently only available in warm white at the moment though, and SWMBO won't put up with that

Crompton say/said they make both direct wiring ones (where you have to cut out the ballast) and ballast-compatible ones. But the ballast compatible ones don't appear on their site. I found one site selling the ballast compatible ones for half the price that other sellers are selling the direct ones, so it may be end-of-line stock?

I find the Philips site very confusing and awkward to use. It took me ages to discover that they don't seem to sell what I want - 849 mm (that Philips would call 900 mm :( ) and if you go to their UK retail site, they don't offer any T5 tubes at all it seems.

But it does seem to be good news regarding outputs/watt going up.

LED developments

Mike1 — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 23:56:00 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeen"Todayâ€™s plans also include a ban from September [2022?2023?] on the sale of lighting fixtures with fixed bulbs that canâ€™t be replaced â€“ meaning the fixtures have to be thrown away."

I've come across a number of light fittings recently with 'integrated LEDS' that are 'replaceable by an electrician', or similar. So I guess that may be a dodge to get around the ban?

LED developments

Peter_in_Hungary — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 09:37:29 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenFluorescent lights are soon going to be
a thing of the past. The Reduction of
Hazardous Substances (RoHS) directive of
the European Union restricts the use ...

This won't affect you lot 'cos Jacob R. M. is going to dump anything EU !

However it's good news that 'disposable' light fittings are on the way out and that the lumens / Watt is going up.

LED developments

borpin — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 10:21:12 +0000

Posted By: Simon StillThe Crompton ones need you to rewire your fitting and remove the ballast

Would that need Part P?

Or just a 'competent person'?

LED developments

djh — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:13:39 +0000

There's a rather scathing commentary on the government announcement at
https://blog.lightbulbs-direct.com/halogen-light-bulb-ban-september-2021/
which includes the following bit:
"Lighting fixtures/fittings (luminaires) with non-replaceable/fixed lamps are not banned but this type of design is being discouraged in the future with a technical justification being required for these designs."
So not much change there :(

Philips is also wrong. It was T8 tubes that were banned. The more efficient T5s that I have are still available, although the LEDs have now matched them in efficiency (or should that be efficacy??)

LED developments

djh — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:15:01 +0000

Posted By: borpin
Posted By: Simon StillThe Crompton ones need you to rewire your fitting and remove the ballast
Would that need Part P?

Or just a 'competent person'?

Good question. Dunno about the theoretical answer, but I do know the practical one

LED developments

WillInAberdeen — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 11:47:59 +0000

Interesting blog, thanks.
Seems like the 'non replaceable lamps' rule is easy to evade, which is a pity.

Elsewhere on their blog, T5 fluorescents to be banned from August 2023, under different legislation to do with mercury, as Philips mentioned.
https://blog.lightbulbs-direct.com/cfl-light-bulb-ban/

Halogens are still available on eBay as remaindered stock - I just bought a linear halogen lamp for a security light inside a shed that is lit a couple of hours each year. The LED equivalent lamp is too fat to fit, and it seems undesirable to scrap the whole fitting..

LED developments

Simon Still — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 12:39:05 +0000

Posted By: djhYes, I'd thought the filament types were made for 'fashion victims'. It looks like they're currently only available in warm white at the moment though, and SWMBO won't put up with that" title="">

I find the Philips site very confusing and awkward to use. It took me ages to discover that they don't seem to sell what I want - 849 mm (that Philips would call 900 mm :( ) and if you go to their UK retail site, they don't offer any T5 tubes at all it seems.

But it does seem to be good news regarding outputs/watt going up.

When fitted the t5 fluorescents 8 years ago they were more efficient than the LED alternatives and significantly cheaper to buy.

T5 Philips LED definitely available in the UK - I found them for sale and that was what took me to the Philips site to find out what the options were.

Posted By: WillInAberdeen"Todayâ€™s plans also include a ban from September [2022?2023?] on the sale of lighting fixtures with fixed bulbs that canâ€™t be replaced â€“ meaning the fixtures have to be thrown away."

I'm a bit more 'meh' about this. having 240v fittings with drivers packed into a tiny space in each individual bulb is pretty crap - in the 8 years we've been here I've had to replace quite a number of GU10 LED bulbs and they're difficult/unreliable to dim. The (expensive) LED spots I've got which have separate drivers (one driver to a number of lights) have not had a single failure.

LED developments

djh — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:10:55 +0000

Hmm, the blog seems a bit confused, under the bit where it says they're no longer to be produced (not banned from sale!) it says:

"Despite this, there are still some cases that are considered exempt, like emergency lighting, battery-operated light sources, fixtures with replaceable light sources, and works of art."

I'd have thought every fitting with a T5 tube had a replaceable light source?

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djh — Sat, 28 Jan 2023 15:13:56 +0000

Posted By: Simon StillI'm a bit more 'meh' about this. having 240v fittings with drivers packed into a tiny space in each individual bulb is pretty crap - in the 8 years we've been here I've had to replace quite a number of GU10 LED bulbs and they're difficult/unreliable to dim.

Hmm, we've been here for coming up to 8 years and I haven't had to replace a single one of the 50 or so Crompton GU10 LEDs I have. But I deliberately don't buy dimming varieties, so maybe that's it. Just the metal-bodied COB ones.

LED developments

revor — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 08:41:06 +0000

I recently replaced 6 5' fluorescent tubes in my workshop and office a few weeks ago with LED tubes. Each came with a starter you replaced the existing one with it. About Â£8 plus VAT each got them from Rexel also available at CEF and other places. They start up straight away and full brightness dead pleased great improvement on the old and save energy and dead easy to fit. Make was Osram and are 20w 2200lm

LED developments

LF — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 09:06:19 +0000

On the non replaceable LEDs.
I had one fail but repaired by linking out the single failed. Found the repair idea on interweb

LED developments

borpin — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 12:31:27 +0000

Posted By: revorI recently replaced 6 5' fluorescent tubes in my workshop and office a few weeks ago with LED tubes. Each came with a starter you replaced the existing one with it. About Â£8 plus VAT each got them from Rexel also available at CEF and other places. They start up straight away and full brightness dead pleased great improvement on the old and save energy and dead easy to fit. Make was Osram and are 20w 2200lm

Care to post a link? Exactly what I need to do.

LED developments

revor — Sun, 29 Jan 2023 15:44:59 +0000

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4513537-23w-t8-5ft-led-tube-glass-6500k

rexel.co.uk Part Number #2501001540

Can't give you direct link as there are cookies on my pc which takes you to my trade account.

There are glass versions and polycarbonate versions of the tubes glass is dearer

Posted By: borpinCare to post a link? Exactly what I need to do.

LED developments

Simon Still — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 12:36:22 +0000

Theres been a lot of bullshit about saving money with LED replacements for fluorescents as they're already really efficient - theres almost certainly a negative environmental impact of replacing them before they fail.

These t5 tubes https://www.any-lamp.co.uk/philips-master-tl5-he-35w-840-cool-white-145cm-8711500639523?
Are Â£3.90, 24000hours, 95 lumens per watt.

The link above gets you 108 lumens per watt, the same estimated life and they're Â£16

LED developments

Simon Still — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 12:40:16 +0000

Posted By: djhHmm, we've been here for coming up to 8 years and I haven't had to replace a single one of the 50 or so Crompton GU10 LEDs I have. But I deliberately don't buy dimming varieties, so maybe that's it. Just the metal-bodied COB ones.

I'm no longer dimming any of mine but have still had failures in our kitchen table lights since. Those bulbs are downward facing in a concrete fitting so theres no ventilation. I suspect they run hot and that's what shortens their life.

LED developments

revor — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:27:25 +0000

Posted By: Simon StillTheres been a lot of bullshit about saving money with LED replacements for fluorescents as they're already really efficient - theres almost certainly a negative environmental impact of replacing them before they fail.

These t5 tubeshttps://www.any-lamp.co.uk/philips-master-tl5-he-35w-840-cool-white-145cm-8711500639523?" rel="nofollow" >https://www.any-lamp.co.uk/philips-master-tl5-he-35w-840-cool-white-145cm-8711500639523?
Are Â£3.90, 24000hours, 95 lumens per watt.

The link above gets you 108 lumens per watt, the same estimated life and they're Â£16

I'll bear them in mind but do they come full brightness straight away. I paid Â£8.30 plus VAT at Rexel for polycarbonate ones.

LED developments

djh — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:33:28 +0000

Posted By: Simon StillTheres been a lot of bullshit about saving money with LED replacements for fluorescents as they're already really efficient

Agreed. Specifically T5 triphosphor fluorescents have been better than anything else I've seen until very recently. CFLs and T8 halophosphates not so much. I gather the latest regs are designed to reduce the mercury that might leak into the environment rather than improve efficiency. But I agree about not replacing until they fail.

I'm no longer dimming any of mine but have still had failures in our kitchen table lights since. Those bulbs are downward facing in a concrete fitting so theres no ventilation. I suspect they run hot and that's what shortens their life.

Could well be. Most of mine are in open mounts so the lamp is exposed to the air. John Lewis Keely or similar. But the ones in shower rooms etc are enclosed and haven't failed either. Downward facing concrete sounds like pretty much worst case.

FWIW, Crompton say the 200 lm/W ones are only available through a couple of suppliers at present, and sadly they're not available in a colour temperature I'm interested in. Maybe there'll be more types in the future.

LED developments

Simon Still — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 15:01:03 +0000

Posted By: revor
I'll bear them in mind but do they come full brightness straight away. I.

So do the triphosphor High frequency T5's

Posted By: djhCFLs and T8 halophosphates not so much.

CFLs were pretty universally terrible. Slow to reach full brightness, bulky, relatively fragile; short life. I can't get my head around t5s - they were definitely higher performance at the time. Did the narrower tube just reduce resources to make them? I think the small size means LED replacements are lagging behind t8s (and have had rigidity issues)

Posted By: djhDownward facing concrete sounds like pretty much worst case.

For sure. but I'm guessing would probably have killed halogens quickly as well.

LED developments

borpin — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:10:36 +0000

Posted By: revorhttps://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4513537-23w-t8-5ft-led-tube-glass-6500k

Thanks.

Interestingly that doesn't go to an Osmram tube.

I did find these though at Â£6.83!

https://www.any-lamp.co.uk/osram-substitube-led-t8-value-em-mains-standard-output-20w-2200lm-865-daylight-150cm-replaces-58w-4058075454606

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Simon Still — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 09:05:33 +0000

and there you have the efficiency bollocks -
LED 20w T8 'replaces 58W', 'save 70% energy'

It's 2200 lm. The Osram 58W T8 fluroescent tube they sell is 5000 lumen
https://www.any-lamp.co.uk/osram-t8-lumilux-58w-865-daylight-150cm-4050300517933?queryID=86754ce59ca240042e6754c310f3cfeb&objectID=9451&indexName=m2_prod_any_lamp_co_uk_products

It's easy to reduce your energy costs if you're happy to reduce your light output by 66% at the same time

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revor — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 09:06:20 +0000

Posted By: borpinInterestingly that doesn't go to an Osmram tube.

I got mine from Rexel The CEF was a different make and were dearer because they were glass I expect. The links were to give you a choice.

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borpin — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 13:26:46 +0000

Posted By: revorThe links were to give you a choice.

Thanks. I Thought I'd misunderstood.

Posted By: Simon StillIt's 2200 lm. The Osram 58W T8 fluroescent tube they sell is 5000 lumen

I did wonder, though often LEDs do seem brighter.

My tubes are EOL so I need to find a replacement.

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Simon Still — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 14:18:02 +0000

Posted By: borpinI did wonder, though often LEDs do seem brighter.

Probably because their directional - beam angle on the ones there is 120degrees. Conventional fluro tubes must lose some lumens that are focused upwards and rely on a white painted plate to reflect it back. I'm surprised more 'industrial' type lights don't have a proper reflector of some kind.

It's even worse if the tube is full enclosed and just has a downward facing frosted lens. I've got a fitting that has one 36w tube facing upwards and another downwards with solid sides and frosted lenses. It gives a nice light, but it's not that bright given the room has 6000lumens in it.

However - that's true of masses of light fittings. Opaque lampshades being the worst.

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borpin — Sat, 04 Feb 2023 17:54:55 +0000

Posted By: revorI recently replaced 6 5' fluorescent tubes in my workshop and office a few weeks ago with LED tubes.

Posted By: revorMake was Osram and are 20w 2200lm

Did you find this was a like for like in terms of actual light? Were they the standard 58W tubes originally?

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revor — Sun, 05 Feb 2023 08:56:42 +0000

Posted By: borpinDid you find this was a like for like in terms of actual light? Were they the standard 58W tubes originally?

Yes they replaced standard 58 w tubes. They do seem brighter probably because they are a colder light. The big plus for me is my office is more often than not visited for vey short periods and because it is a room in another building (agricultural shed) it always needs the light on. As LED comes on full brightness straight away it is a great advantage over the std tubes as I have left before the fluorescent tubes have warmed up. One thing to note when fitting the LED tubes make sure the conducting strip in the tube is facing the ceiling otherwise you get a dark line showing.

LED developments

CWatters — Tue, 14 Feb 2023 16:58:36 +0000

Posted By: borpinI did wonder, though often LEDs do seem brighter.

My tubes are EOL so I need to find a replacement.

Possibly due to the different spectrum they produce. eg ey being more sensitive to green.

Its interesting that the maximum possible efficiency depends on the spectrum/colour. Its something like 500 L/W if you can live with pure green.

I think for something people agree is still white its around 320 l/W.