https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/german-cabinet-approves-bill-phase-out-oil-gas-heating-systems-2023-04-19/

"almost all newly installed heating systems in Germany should run on 65% renewable energy from 2024, both in new and old buildings.

"Houses could also use heat pumps that run on renewable electricity, district heating, electric heating or solar thermal systems

"The government will offer a subsidy of 30% for residential properties occupied by owners and 10% extra if the owners opt for an earlier climate-friendly heating switch...
Homeowners who receive income-related welfare benefits could get 20% extra subsidy"

Posted By: WillInAberdeenGermany to ban new and replacement gas boilers from next year

If the law sticks I can see a lot of 5 - 10 year old gas boilers getting junked this year.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenThe government will offer a subsidy of 30% for residential properties occupied by owners and 10% extra if the owners opt for an earlier climate-friendly heating switch...

Hmm - And landlords ? Never mind they can just put the rent up to cover the costs.

Of course Germany has been affected to a much greater extent by the lack of Russian gas than the UK - which loss I suspect has been the main driver for this change.

My understanding is that this covers where a boiler might break and be BER (or any sort of repair).

It is at that point impossible to quickly get a heating system working in the property again. Equally, the cost of replacing a Boiler with a HP system is at least 2x greater, possibly more. How would that be paid for.

The burden will fall on landlords to a much greater extent than here is the UK as a much higher proportion of Germans rent rather than are owners, but still, rapid replacement or a boiler with a HP simply is not an option.

OTOH, forcing repair where otherwise it may have been scrapped, might be a good thing.

People seem to think we have all the time in the world, while these feeble measures play out.

Posted By: Mike1"German government settles heating row, relaxes rules on new fossil fuel systems"
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/german-government-settles-heating-row-relaxes-rules-new-fossil-fuel-systems

Reading that article AFAICS it has watered down the proposal to a non-event.
e.g.
H2 ready gas boilers can be installed
Blue H2 is supported by the regulations as is wood burning and pellet boilers.
And

quote
No one should be overburdened when replacing their heating system, economy minister Robert Habeck told broadcaster ARD, adding that social hardship is to be compensated for with subsidies. Exactly how that will look like is yet to be decided.
end quote

So enough scope to drive a horse and cart through the legislation and lots of options to modify the plans in the future.

Until the alternatives are as cheap and easy as a gas combi then there is going to be (a lot of) push-back.
IMO this push-bach is going to happen across the board.

Posted By: djh

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryUntil the alternatives are as cheap and easy as a gas combi

I don't think there's any particular to reason to expect that ever to happen. JMHO. Modern cars aren't as simple or cheap as a 1916 Ford Model TT.

Modern gas boilers are much more advanced than those of 50 years ago - just like the developments in cars over the years and prices have risen to match However as an alternative to the ubiquitous gas combi electric heating is cheap to install but all the time electricity is pegged to the price of gas it is (too) expensive to run. Solar and wind give cheaper electricity than gas - with costs still falling - so there could (will?) be a time when resistance electric heating is a reasonable option even for retrofit in older buildings. - just IMO

Posted By: djh1916 Ford Model TT

Was that the Isle of Man version?

Posted By: WillInAberdeenAnd agreed that people fixate on the upfront cost, when actually the running costs add up to a lot more Ă‚ÂŁ over the lifetime of the boiler.

But when you are talking about landlords - of any sort, private, housing ass. or state - the upfront cost has to be found and it is the tenant who benefits from lower running costs. (A bit like insulating the property) The solution tends to be to put up the rent.
I have found in the main that the headline rent is what counts and the running costs tend to be ignored.

PIH, i’m a landlord and have contact with lots of others, we all let property towards the benefits end of the market.
In 27 years of letting , i’ve only had 1 tenant who took any interest in how to get the best from a heating system, all the rest just want radiators that get hot enough to glow in the dark. Wireless thermostats/programmers invariably have flat/ no batteries in them, are never set to correct time or programmed. Temperature regulation is a mixture of open windows and or boiler off. They generally moan in mid winter that the heating is expensive , but have no idea of what they’ve spent over the preceding year, just that in a week where the temperature has’nt been over zero they’ve had to top up twice.
As and when i’m forced down the heatpump route, in the absence of a serious education programme from the gov, i’ll be getting endless calls about flat not being warm enough ( all but 1 are currently epc C) and they’ll have tinkered with any controls they can in an attempt to get more heat.
I’ve an ex council flat , that has an old back boiler installed in 1988 and weather compensation , despite the appalling published efficiency rating and pilot light , the flat costs very little to heat. It’s the only 1 of 2 out of 18 that haven’t had combis fitted, the combis fitted by the council because they never looked after the back boilers.
When i have to move over to heatpumps ( if it’s actually a realistic possibility for the buildings i have) i’ll need to move over to UFH ( current heating is radiators via plastic microbore) or go for IWI, either way it means new kitchens, bathrooms, flooring and decoration on top of the iwi / ufh and heatpumps. Plus finding a way for hotwater . I did a rough costing for a block of 4 small flats built in 2004, it came out at 80-100k , when you factored in lost rent and the council tax and utility costs whilst empty. I’d want that back over 7-10 years which with finance costs means the rents would be going up 200-250 a month, which is unaffordable on rents that are currently 650-725 a month , for the tenants who are on lower incomes.
The costs to the taxpayer for grants to the social housing sector ( to improve energy efficiency and pursue net zero) in the years to come are going to eyewatering and hugely unpopular for those homeowners who’ll be looking at what needs to be done to their own homes.
The proposed improvements to energy efficiency required of the private rented sector appear have been kicked into the long grass, the previous consultation has had no response from the gov and is all reality no longer valid with the energy cost increases of late. There is no joined up thinking or long term plan and to cap it off until there is legislation that forces landlords to improve their property any improvements a landlord may make , would currently be classed as capital improvements and not a business expense, as a result such tax treatment and the lack of some long term certainty as to what work is required , hardly any landlord is going to spend the sums of money needed.
Total mess.

In no particular order,

There needs to be legislation/guidance for landlords that reaches at least 10 preferably 20 years forward , as the costs involved are such that there needs to be certainty, costs need to be tax deductible in several ways and landlords then choose which they prefer.
The social sector needs to be treated identically to the private sector, that way the cosy deals and excessive subsidies will be curtailed.
Tenants have to expect to save nothing , the reduced bills will go to the landlords be they private or social to repay the expenditure.
There needs to be a proper education campaign as to how to heat your home in the most efficient way, education system , councils, energy suppliers etc all need to be involved. But only ending up worse off will concentrate minds, which is hardly a way forward.
Interest free loans would be nice but that’s never going to happen, quite how i’ll cover the cost for my properties is going to be a real issue , as my tenants can’t afford the rent rises the expenditure would need, plus my properties being all C’s bar 1 D are not going to save much going the heat pump route, certainly not the 3k a year rents go up.

Which is why i’ve just had my epcs redone, i’ll have 10 years to see how things unfold. ( and save). The other forgotten aspect is that there are huge numbers of competent experienced gas engineers, i’ve used the same one for 15 years, lots of self employed independent engineers you can build a rapport with and get good service, i’ve no confidence i’d find anything vaguely similar in the heatpump arena and have to use companies with all the added costs and so larger bills they incur.

It won’t sit well with many on here, but the current path is going to be a disaster, had the sustainability building codes not been discarded the country might now have a much more experienced and larger green oriented construction industry, instead we still have hordes of housebashing bodgers. There should be a drive to improve buoldings insulation ( the old days of £1 rolls of insulation and an advertising campaign to get people to use them) scrap vat on all energy efficency related products for everyone no matter where they buy it. Do something about the “at the till prices” which have soared for insulation products.

Again won’t go down well on here, net zero is a 50 year marathon not a sprint and for all intents and purposes in the real world of your average home owner the starting gun hasn’t fired. There’s too great a fixation on the eventual goal and next to no consideration of what needs to be done at street level to get there, instead the numpties in parliament and the civil service dream up impractical unnaffordable timelines.

Thanks for the feedback. I think the chances of 10 or 20 years of stability is a hopeless dream. The rental sector and leasing law in general is in such a mess that needs sorting out and that will involve banging a lot of heads so nobody is keen to do it.

I think landlords in general would be better regarded and treated if they behaved better themselves. (ditto tenants FWIW). There are too many cases of obviously poor behaviour on all fronts for any external observer to have much sympathy for any of the guilty parties and by extension whole groups get tarred with the same brush.

Agree about the lack of properly trained people (same in the health service, the civil service, the justice department etc etc). Government mismanagement at all levels.

Agree about the marathon rather than a sprint; the problem is that the end date is pretty much fixed (or a lot less flexible than you might hope). So we need some very competent project planners who are actually listened to, and who can actually be trusted to do something we can all live with.

George Carlin: its a big club and you aint in it.