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General: Tanalised timber

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    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2023 edited
     
    What ho one and all,

    Not a building question, specifically, gardening!

    We have a 4x1 tanalised timber edging between the garden and the gravel drive. It lasts around 5 years before completely disintegrating. In the past, I have painted with creosote (5 years)l old engine oil and then Ducksback timber treatment (5 years.)

    This time, I am considering not treating but fixing some black plastic on the back where the timber is in constant contact with the soil and then some Ducksback on the visible, above ground timber.

    My kinda question is, timber rots due to the contact with the damp soi (or course, it also rots because it is a rubbish material!); but plastic will not prevent water ingress and could assist in containing dampness.

    Given that I am on a budget and all other options are very expensive, is there a preferred method to prolong the life of the timber?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2023 edited
     
    I've foung that doug fir 'slabbing' or 'scantling' timber from sawmills lasts longer in the ground than so-called 'treated' timber from timber merchants (the greenish stuff, which is not tanalised - that's something else, more expensive, not generally available, tho required for roofing battens). Slabbing is the outer cut, with bark on, before they can cutting planks or beams, so it's curved one face, making two knife-edges to the one sawn face. So is cheapish. It is untreated but benefits from doug fir's natural oils, which make it (when squared up into a more substantial member) 'semi-durable' i.e. rot-proof as long as it can drain and dry out - a good step up from commercial softwoods. In the soggy ground, it can't claim 'semi-durable' but still seems better than 'treated' softwood.
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2023
     
    Thanks for your thoughts. Will check the local saw mill when I next drive past.

    Apart from anything else, I have found in the past the the timber yard tanalised c**p has so many knots that it does not like gentle bends.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2023
     
    DF is the best softwood timber superior to some hardwoods it is most expensive of the softwoods and used in quality joinery where durability is required. Great if you can get scantling from the mill. Another thought is see if you can get an outlet that sells plastic fascia and soffit boards for damaged lengths. It cost them to get rid of it and they may be glad for someone to take it away for free.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2023
     
    I know from personal experience that wrapping timber with plastic as "protection" from the soil actually accelerates rotting. I had the same problem as you and I used (admittedly not very "green") plain 6" concrete gravel boards for the edging. These are painted with green masonry paint and I'm pretty confident that these will last many, many years with no maintenance other than an occasional lick of paint. Having said that, mine have been in at least 5 years and don't need painting yet.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2023
     
    Posted By: Jeff BI had the same problem as you and I used (admittedly not very "green") plain 6" concrete gravel boards for the edging.


    At a guess I d say that over time concrete could be a greener solution than repeatedly chopping down trees to replace rotted timber?? If you use salvaged edging boards or small paving flags and ensure anything you use is reused then you'd likely be better using concrete??
  7.  
    B&M have some edging boards made from chopped up bits of old car tyres.

    No idea how green or durable that is compared to alternatives but they actually looked ok.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2023 edited
     
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: philedge
    Posted By: Jeff BI had the same problem as you and I used (admittedly not very "green") plain 6" concrete gravel boards for the edging.


    At a guess I d say that over time concrete could be a greener solution than repeatedly chopping down trees to replace rotted timber?? If you use salvaged edging boards or small paving flags and ensure anything you use is reused then you'd likely be better using concrete??


    Thank you - I feel less guilty now! :wink:
  10.  
    ive heard that scorching timber over a fire/blowtorch gives alot of protection (the Egyptions did it apparently)..ive done it to some posts outside,ill let you know in 50 years how its working!
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2023
     
    Have you considered low drystone walls? If you are willing to spent the time building them yourself they are cheap, look good and will last. Any arable farmer in the area will have heaps of suitable stone picked of ploughed fields which they will usually let you have FOC.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2023 edited
     
    I torched-on postsavers to the last fence posts I put in.

    Posted By: chrisinbrightonive heard that scorching timber over a fire/blowtorch gives alot of protection (the Egyptions did it apparently)
    And that's what I did to the timber.

    That was only 3 years ago, so too soon to report the long-term effectiveness.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: Mike1I torched-on postsavers
    What are those?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2023
     
    "Postsavers"
    I use those too, so far so good, although I still have reservations regarding some Tanalith treatment

    @ Tom Foster: most fence posts rot at the junction of soil and air. Postsavers are a torch on bitumin wrap around sleeve that protects that vulnerable zone. Vertical placement of the post is of course critical.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2023
     
    Somethin new - thanks
  16.  
    Farms round here use fenceposts where the pointy end is dipped into bitumen to just above soil height, maybe something like this, or a homebrew version
    https://www.tuffdip.com/solution.php
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenFarms round here use fenceposts where the pointy end is dipped into bitumen to just above soil height, maybe something like this, or a homebrew version
    https://www.tuffdip.com/solution.php" rel="nofollow" >https://www.tuffdip.com/solution.php

    Very environmentally sensitive :cry: maybe I am on the wrong forum :wink:
  18.  
    Bitumen is pretty inert and benign, because nothing in the food chain can ingest it, that's one reason why so much is used for roads, roofs, etc.

    You're perhaps thinking of creosote? Which is (possibly? finally?) being banned for farm fenceposts, so bitumen coating is a safer alternative to that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2023 edited
     
    Not to be confused with Creocote which is made as a generally available but still nasty, much less effective substitute - and even has that traditional smell added.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenBitumen is pretty inert and benign, because nothing in the food chain can ingest it, that's one reason why so much is used for roads, roofs, etc.

    You're perhaps thinking of creosote? Which is (possibly? finally?) being banned for farm fenceposts, so bitumen coating is a safer alternative to that.


    Learn something new every day :bigsmile:
  21.  
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenBitumen is pretty inert and benign


    It does still contain some carcinogens though, no?

    https://www.anses.fr/en/content/exposure-bitumen

    "As a distillation residue, bitumen is a blend of various chemical compounds (over 10,000) whose precise composition is impossible to list. In fact, depending on the origin of the raw petroleum used and on the production process applied, many different types of bitumen with diverse properties may be manufactured."

    Not necessarily any worse than tanalising but certainly not 'benign'.
  22.  
    Well yes, but that's missing the rest of my sentence saying "because nothing in the food chain can ingest it". Poisonous things have to be ingested to cause poisoning.

    If we think how many thousands of tonnes of bitumen are spread onto roads and roofs each year without unmanageable ill effects, I'd see bitumen-coated fence posts as an improvement on creosote.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen
    If we think how many thousands of tonnes of bitumen are spread onto roads and roofs each year without unmanageable ill effects,


    As we dont yet know the cause of many of the ailments that mankind suffers, it would probably be prudent to treat most man made chemicals with a degree of caution. I certainly wouldn't want to be breathing the fumes off hot bitumen
  24.  
    A few days ago in the hot sun i could smell the bitumun from the pilon posts even 2m away
  25.  
    Well no, but fence posts don't expose anyone to hot bitumen. It's applied as a cold emulsion paint - sprayed or painted on, or dipped.

    Searching up a Safety Material Data Sheets for bitumen emulsion:

    "12 Ecological Toxicity
    Bitumen emulsion is not classified as harmful to the environment. There are no specific acute or
    chronic eco-toxicity data for the product.

    Classified as a non-hazardous waste
    Regulatory information: UN number - Not regulated
    Not classified as a dangerous substance for conveyance.
    The product is not classified as dangerous.

    Decomposition Products NON hazardous bitumen and water. The emulsion will NOT burn."


    https://www.specifiedby.com/bituchem-asphalt-ltd/polbit-bitumen-emulsion/bituchem-asphalt_Polbit_Specifications_bbp-emulsions-msds-2013.pdf
  26.  
    Chris, pylons still use creosote, that's the smelly stuff that got banned for fencing. Still allowed for railway sleepers too.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenfence posts don't expose anyone to hot bitumen
    just all the birds and bees *except* 'anyone'.
  28.  
    'hot' as in 'hot enough to give off fumes' - I imagine Phil is thinking of the hot stuff that is rolled hot onto roads at 100s of degrees C, I did mention that. But not fenceposts, they're made of wood so cold application is advisable of...
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenbitumen to just above soil height
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenFarms round here use fenceposts where the pointy end is dipped into bitumen to just above soil height, maybe something like this, or a homebrew version
    https://www.tuffdip.com/solution.php" rel="nofollow" >https://www.tuffdip.com/solution.php

    Just bought some for some new fencing. Will apply before contractor errects. Fence post on my parcel of land lucky to get 10/12 years out of.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeen'hot' as in 'hot enough to give off fumes' - I imagine Phil is thinking of the hot stuff that is rolled hot onto roads at 100s of degrees C, I did mention that

    Yes I quoted and commented on the 2 hot applications you had mentioned

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