Green Building Forum - EPC Queries

EPC Queries

Victorianeco — Sat, 26 Aug 2023 16:46:08 +0100

Instructed a local EPC company as we are selling our home.

They attended without us being there, I told them before they produce the report that the following has been done:

*All light fittings are LED
*90mm External wall insulation to rear elevation complete
*50mm kingspan Internal wall insulation to front elevation to retain facade
*150mm kingspan insulation to ground floor kitchen, hallway
*500mm EPS beads to lounge and dining room
*125mm kingspan insulation to attic (50mm in-between rafters, 75mm below)
*Air source heat pump running wet underfloor heating and oversized radiators. Flow temperature is set to 35c throughout property at design temperature of -3c
*Danfoss TRV's to all rooms with radiators
*Danfoss wireless stats to rooms with radiators
*A rated glass to all windows

He came back with he can only evidence what he can 'photograph'

Where do I stand to ensure the EPC is accurate?

EPC Queries

tony — Sat, 26 Aug 2023 17:46:27 +0100

In the lurch big time unfortunately

EPC Queries

Artiglio — Sat, 26 Aug 2023 18:00:06 +0100

If you have , invoices for any of the work that was done professionally you can try presenting it with any supporting documentation, sign offs from building control usually accepted. Expose where you can by taking off switch/sockett face plates and popping out the back box if you can, but otherwise as per tonyâ€™s comment youâ€™re stuck.

EPC Queries

revor — Sat, 26 Aug 2023 19:52:56 +0100

I'd get him to come back and do a proper job and when you are there to point stuff out to him. When we sold our last house we had a visit and showed him what we had done to improve. He was not bothered again only what he could see. Photographs were of no use all he said was it only showed that part of the building and could not assume the rest was same. Their fall back situation is to apply the building regs when the house was built. When I got his report he had misreported stuff one example was his measurement of the insulation of the hot water cylinder. I made him come back to remeasure. When he returned he said he had been a stockbroker but stress had got to him so he did a one day course so he could do EPC's. He admitted he knew very little about buildings. They have in C&G parlance no underpinning knowledge. (Well some might)

EPC Queries

philedge — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 06:24:05 +0100

Posted By: Victorianeco
Where do I stand to ensure the EPC is accurate?

It's nice to have an accurate EPC, but I dont think it makes any difference to a potential buyers decision to buy or not.

I've just looked at recent EPC on a house in our postcode that achieved a D rating. There were several assumptions made in the EPC where the assessor would be unlikely to see things such as CWI so there's lots of educated guesswork.

The EPC gave Â£10s of thousands pounds worth of upgrades that would take the house from a D to A rating and potentially save Â£376/year. Paying an extra few hundred Â£ a year on running costs isnt going to put people off if the house ticks all a buyers other boxes.

You can always ask your estate agent to include all the work youve done in the sales particulars with a note saying these aren't considered in the EPC.

EPC Queries

kristeva — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 08:03:04 +0100

I would agree with philedge, I would rely on the estate agent to get the necessary information across to potential buyers, and you could even supply a copy of your energy bills.

EPC's should only ever be a guide and I doubt many people have taken steps to get them updated via the appropriate channels. My old house came with zero insulation and pitched roofs, it'll be considerably different when I'm finished.

EPC Queries

djh — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 10:51:33 +0100

Posted By: kristevaEPC's should only ever be a guide and I doubt many people have taken steps to get them updated via the appropriate channels.

The point is that you're legally required to have an up-to-date one when sell (or rent) a property. And you don't have much control about what they say. They are notoriously inaccurate.

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 12:38:51 +0100

We had the same experience as VE, the assessor could only assess insulation that he could see, measure and photograph, or else photograph an official-looking certificate. Likewise for airtightness measures, replacement glazing units, heating system, etc.

He is trained and accredited by an industry body who don't really trust him, so they want to see all of his photos. Without photos he is not allowed to guess, instead RdSAP uses default values based on the age of the building and the EPC shows these as "assumed".

As client, I provided receipts for buying the insulation materials and my own installation photos, but these were not good enough. I could have lifted floorboards and drilled holes into walls to demonstrate insulation thickness, but didn't have time during his 30 minutes visit.

This didn't matter at all, as nobody cared what the EPC said, didn't affect the sale price. That will change when houses below EPC C become illegal to rent or sell (planned 2028 and 2033 in Scotland).

EPC Queries

djh — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 12:54:54 +0100

I wonder if a passivhaus certificate looks official enough for an EP assessor?

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 15:28:49 +0100

Only if it includes the necessary numbers s/he needs to plug into the rdSAP model. Does the certificate state that kind of data on it?

If not, the PH will be assigned the default values for a house built since 2003, assuming the certificate is dated later than then:

Walls U= 0.3, ceiling U=0.16, floor U=0.22, windows area 15% of floor area and U=2, default airtightness value according to wall material.

The problem with showing Building Control certs is they do not include even that basic level of detail (if one exists at all, they don't get issued for retrofitting insulation or windows or heating).

EPC Queries

djh — Sun, 27 Aug 2023 16:55:24 +0100

No, a PH certificate is basically a statement that a qualified independent certifier has seen and verified a PHPP model showing the building to have a heat demand of less than 15 kWh/mÂ²/a etc and has copies of photographs of the construction showing details of all the insulation, windows etc etc.

So precisely what it sounds like an rdSAP assessor is supposed to look for but using a better modelling program than they normally use. I expect there's no way they can/will accept that. It would be far too sensible.

EPC Queries

chrisinbrighton — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 21:34:29 +0100

Could it be a good idea to get an epc inspector in mid works so they can see insulation before boarding over.

EPC Queries

revor — Wed, 30 Aug 2023 07:59:31 +0100

Posted By: chrisinbrightonCould it be a good idea to get an epc inspector in mid works so they can see insulation before boarding over.

No guarantee of that. I needed an EPC on my reno/extension for FIT purposes and got an inspector in. I had built a warm loft there was 170 mm of rockwool between truss rafters and boarded over with 100mm of 100 pir u value was about .11 as recall. A section where a light tube was going showed the construction. Over the bedroom ceilings I had more rockwool for the purposes of sound insulation. He took no notice of the rafter insulation but measured the ceiling insulation. When I pointed out that was for sound insulation and not to be considered as the house insulation he said it was the ceiling insulation he had to measure because that is what was on the form.

EPC Queries

djh — Wed, 30 Aug 2023 11:21:47 +0100

Posted By: revorWhen I pointed out that was for sound insulation and not to be considered as the house insulation he said it was the ceiling insulation he had to measure because that is what was on the form.

I would complain to his certifying body.

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Thu, 31 Aug 2023 08:43:36 +0100

In that case, it does sound like the frustrating problem is with the rdSAP survey procedure (one of many), and not with the individual who was trying to follow it, so a complaint would likely be rejected.

In RdSAP the assessor has to identify the envelope of the building, which includes any 'heated roof rooms that are accessed by a permanent fixed staircase'. If a room in the roof fits that definition then it is included in the floor area of the building (for the kWh/mÂ² rating and for calculating ventilation losses etc) and the roof room is included in the survey of the insulation envelope, including its gable walls and windows.

Maybe Revor's loft didn't match the definition of a room-in-the-roof? In which case rdSAP treats the ceiling of the room beneath as being the heating envelope of the building, so that's what the assessor has to measure. Only if that ceiling is uninsulated, does rdSAP look at any insulation value of the roof rafters. That's a fault in the rdSAP system in this case.

EPC Queries

revor — Thu, 31 Aug 2023 19:29:56 +0100

Posted By: djhI would complain to his certifying body.

At end of day was not much point. He said he would do an EPR rather than an EPC as I did not have a working heating system. At that point I had disconnected an oil boiler and removed all radiators. I told him was thinking was along the lines, at that point a pellet boiler but as he could not see that in place, to put down as worst case scenario an oil boiler. He went away did not see a report rang several times left messages never returned calls. As had not had a bill for services stopped mithering the company he worked for.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenMaybe Revor's loft didn't match the definition of a room-in-the-roof? In which case rdSAP treats the ceiling of the room beneath as being the heating envelope of the building, so that's what the assessor has to measure. Only if that ceiling is uninsulated, does rdSAP look at any insulation value of the roof rafters. That's a fault in the rdSAP system in this case.

That makes sense of what happened. Perhaps building control are better placed to do EPC's as they are supervising the build as it goes along. I have a long entrance glazed corridor/ conservatory and wanted to have underfloor heating in there which generally (certainly here) is not allowed but my BCO said it was Ok as he could see without a SAPS assessment that along with all the other stuff we had done we were safe to do so. As it turned out we have never had the heat on in there other than when UFH was commissioned. So he would have been the best placed person to do an EPC as he new his stuff and not someone who had done a few days, if that, training on ticking EPC boxes.

EPC Queries

kristeva — Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:29:45 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeen
This didn't matter at all, as nobody cared what the EPC said, didn't affect the sale price. That will change when houses below EPC C become illegal to rent or sell (planned 2028 and 2033 in Scotland).

Is this for real?

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:49:36 +0100

https://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-in-homes/

Also going to change the EPC scale, so EPCs may go up or down from their rating at the moment
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17921

EPC Queries

kristeva — Sun, 03 Sep 2023 22:46:35 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeenhttps://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-in-homes/" rel="nofollow" >https://www.gov.scot/policies/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-in-homes/

Also going to change the EPC scale, so EPCs may go up or down from their rating at the moment
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17921" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17921

Wow, that's bonkers, 35% of properties unsaleable! That's a lot of very unhappy people, I'd expect a riot to ensue.

What's happening to Scotland, first the gender recognition bill and now this.

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 09:51:13 +0100

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/30/energy-ratings-for-homes-to-be-overhauled/

Changes are in the works for England too. The official target is EPC C required for all homes by 2035 but with caveats

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-10523887/Will-15million-homes-need-energy-efficiency-improvements-2035-order-meet-EPC-C-rating.html

EPC Queries

philedge — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 13:23:13 +0100

Posted By: kristeva

Wow, that's bonkers, 35% of properties unsaleable!

You could also say that 35% of homeowners need to get their finger out??

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 15:38:24 +0100

Hi Phil, Ref the other thread,

The gov say 65% of properties are technically capable of being upgraded to meet the proposed new Scottish EPC C level required for sale after 2033 (including adding inspectable under-floor insulation)

35% are not technically capable of being upgraded to C, no matter how many fingers are pulled out! The new system will not allow heat pumps or PV to be used on them, which previously/elsewhere would be considered useful to improve energy performance.

Unknown how many cannot be upgraded for non-technical reasons eg conservation area, sitting tenants, cost etc

Also unknown so far what is to be done with the 35%, or who gets to decide what level is technically feasible for each house (the EPC surveyor?).

The minister responsible says it's ok as a 'majority' of properties can be upgraded.

EPC Queries

philedge — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 20:46:23 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeen
35% are not technically capable of being upgraded to C, no matter how many fingers are pulled out!

Do you know what constitutes a property that CANT be upgraded to a C?

I'm struggling to think of anything that cant be draughtproofed and insulated, with the correct mindset.

EPC Queries

chrisinbrighton — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 21:11:17 +0100

I imagine listed buildings or old ones in conservation areas might struggle to get the C rating,but maybe they will be the ones with caveats

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 21:17:26 +0100

That was according to BRE's work for the scot gov - their report is linked from the other thread.

I'd agree with the sentiment under the old/existing EPC scale, but the new scale is going to be more demanding apparently. Draught proofng and CWI are not going to be enough it seems! Present-day PHs will be at EPC C level, with EPC A and B reserved for future new buildings.

Edit to add: draught proofing doesn't/won't improve the EPC, because the rdSAP assessment visit doesn't include a blower test. The air change rate in rdSAP is just assigned based on the age of the building and what it is made from, irrespective of whether draught proofing work has been done.

EPC Queries

philedge — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 10:59:49 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeen
I'd agree with the sentiment under the old/existing EPC scale, but the new scale is going to be more demanding apparently. Draught proofng and CWI are not going to be enough it seems! Present-day PHs will be at EPC C level, with EPC A and B reserved for future new buildings.

I read the Scot govs energy efficiency doc as meaning achieving current EPC C by 2033, not PH std-

"In response, we will introduce regulations requiring that all residential properties in Scotland achieve anÂ Energy Performance CertificateÂ rating of at least equivalent to EPC C by 2033, where technically and legally feasible and cost-effective"

I'm not sure if the "cost effective" calculation will consider weather related global devastation and loss of life or just the homeowners pocket??

The technical and legal perceived constraints just require a change of mindset.

EPC Queries

WillInAberdeen — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 12:49:56 +0100

It's not 'current' EPC C, the scale is going to be changed (for good reason). The property will need to be C on the 'new' scale because current certificates will have expired before 2033.

The BRE report is in the supporting documents section:

"the options for achieving high rating (As and Bs) might be limited... It may have to be accepted that bands A and
B are going to be occupied mostly by new dwellings."

In separate legislation, all new homes in Scotland have to be PH standard from 2024. As discussed on the other thread, one of those brand new PHs might get an A or B with its initial full SAP, but once 5 years old it is reassesed using rdSAP and would become a C, according to BRE (who are the authors of SAP and rdSAP).

It hasn't been announced who will get to decide the technical and cost effective bit, but the equivalent decision in the rental regs relies heavily on the list of technical recommendations on the back page of the EPC, which is only as good as the EPC assessment process, and includes 'surprising' cost estimates!

The language about 'cost effective' is a recent addition, the Bute House policy agreement said EPC C without exceptions. So we shall see how far it gets stretched!

The Scottish government considers that a house's energy conservation is not related to GHG emissions anymore, because that depends instead on the type of heating installed which will be dealt with elsewhere on the EPC. If electric, then that is "zero emissions" because electricity in Scotland is already regarded as such. Might be true by 2033.

EPC Queries

philedge — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 18:31:58 +0100

So the Scottish gov believe that the entire Scottish housing stock can be upgraded to PH standards(new EPC C) in 10 years??

EPC Queries

djh — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 20:33:05 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeenIn separate legislation, all new homes in Scotland have to be PH standard from 2024.

Do you/they actually mean PH standard, or some kind of bastardised 'PH-like' standard. What energy model is used , PHPP or SAP or? How is airtightness testing done - using a unidirectional test on a sample of houses or a PH standard bidirectional test on every house? How is the construction certified? i.e. how is it determined that each house has been built as designed? I'll be impressed if they really mean PH

EPC Queries

Artiglio — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 21:59:59 +0100

All this from a government whoâ€™ve had more than a few issues building a couple of ferries. Which bit of cloud cuckoo land are they on.