Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.
Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
 Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




General: Legionella risk and testing

Bottom of Page

1 to 9 of 9

  1.  
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2023
     
    Good day, in my never ending dealings with my local council and its leaseholder charges , legionella costs have reared their head again. Is there anyone on here who has a good grasp on what should be done?

    The block consists of 6 flats, 4 have combi boilers, 2 have conventional heating/dhw boilers. The block has two cold water storage tanks in a rooftop tank room. When the council changed their 4 flats over to combis, they didn’t remove the dead legs created in the feed pipes from the tanks nor reduce the size of the storage tanks. ( they claim that the cold tanks also feed toilets and cold taps in the flats, certainly doesn’t in my flat but can’t say for others but very unlikely).

    Annual checks on the tanks are perfectly reasonable to which i’m liable for my share, checks on hot water temp and cold supply under hse guidance is acceptable annually and is easily done at the same time as the gas cert. However the council is saying that the block also needs testing of “Sentinel” outlets on a monthyl basis if they can get access. Frommwhat i can see from a web search sentinel points are hot outlets associated with recirculating hot water systems not closed domestic systems.
    My council is well known for cosy deals and handing out a contract to check temperatures monthly is just gold plating and will be very unlikely to happen, the charge for this on my block of 6 is Ă‚ÂŁ117.50 a month their are 3 such blocks in the building. Nice little job if you can get it.
    Is my understanding of “sentinel “ correct ? As the water is heated within the flat, it surely falls into the domestic scope.

    Any help appreciated.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2023
     
    I don't think cold taps should be fed from a tank; they should feed straight from the main, I believe. Tanks can get all kinds of things in them from microbes up to dead birds etc so I wouldn't want to be taking drinking water from it.

    I'd never heard of sentinel taps before; as you say they seem to be used in larger commercial systems rather than domestic ones. FWIW, we do run each of our taps once a month or so just to make sure there isn't water standing in the pipes for long periods. If the tanks are on the rooftop, do they stay below 20°C in summer?
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2023
     
    Djh, my flat certainly has it’s cold from the mains and i find it hard to believe mine would be different to the rest, however i expect it’s the excuse for not doing all the works they should have when changing the boilers to combis in their flats. But without access to the other flats I can’t know for sure.
    HSE guidance for domestic properties is as you do to run any outlets that may not have been used for a while. The tanks on the roof (i’m pretty sure) now only feed two flats that have retained conventional heating systems, the water only gets used for DHW and gets heated to 60 degrees , in my flat the setting on the tank and outlet temps are checked each year when the gas cert is done.
    For what the council have spent on the tanks and the gold plated testing over tha last few years they could have made a reasonable contribution to the two leaseholders costs in getting them to change to combis and be quids in going forward and drained and isolated the tanks. I’ve asked for a copy of the latest risk assessment so maybe that will explain things.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeSep 22nd 2023
     
    Well i’ve received a copy of the risk assessment, and unlike the council i’ve actually read it. From the errors it contains, ( picture of cold tank is not from my building (it shows a tank in a pitched roof loft built from timber trusses, the building has flat roofed brick and concrete tank rooms)plus it talks about 1 tank when there are two) so pretty sure the assessor never went up into the tank room. The line diagram for the water supplies is conveniently all encompassing, assessor only managed to get access to one of six flats.
    Assessment clearly states that the hot water systems are not circulatory and that sentinel testing is not applicable in this instance. Of course the council could choose to gold plate the legionella measures they undertake. The assessment recommends annual temperature checks, which would most efficiently be undertaken at the same time as the gas safety check, when it would also be a good time to check any internal smoke/ heat alarms. But joined up thinking is not one of my councils strong points.

    And to top it off when i’ve asked for more detail of the charges on my statement they tell me that the monthly temperature checks are for 2023/24, which is odd as the statement is for 2022/3.

    I’ve previously been assure the council staff are “ highly trained professionals”, i beg to differ.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2023
     
    Posted By: ArtiglioI’ve previously been assure the council staff are “ highly trained professionals”, i beg to differ.


    We have those as well, allegedly.
  6.  
    I remember reading some where theres not been a single case of Legionella ever being traced back to domestic hot water storage systems or heating.
    • CommentAuthorMikel
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2023
     
    @jamesingram

    See FOI response from Health Protection Scotland:
    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/135812/response/335799/attach/3/FOI%20480737%20response.doc?cookie_passthrough=1

    3 cases in 2009 probably linked to domestic hot water systems.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2023 edited
     
    Another bit of data

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fe47a70d3bf7f08945c058b/Legionella_Mthly_Rprt-Aggregate_rprt_Jan-Oct20.pdf

    But definitive links to domestic domestic systems are vanishingly rare , which given the 20 odd million homes in the uk , the majority of which have no risk assessments , really suggests it’s not an issue. And where a link is indicated there seems to be no mention of how the householders heated/ stored their hot water or the general levels of cleaning/ hygiene in the homes.

    There used to be a system volume below which premises were exempt from the legislation ( 300 litres springs to mind and about 15 years ago) which basically meant most homes weren’t included, for some reason this was removed in a review. As a result a whole new industry has grown, innthe example that started this thread, the over reach, gold plating and unchecked assertions are quite astounding. Plus the errors in the report. The costs come out at around £200 a year per unit in this block, extrapolate that across the roughly 3500 properties my council has and it’s 700k . IF that was across the whole social and private rented sector it’d be 1.6 billion to prevent a handful of infections a year. Which could even then be a result of poor cleaning or temperatures being reduced , by tenants.

    Edit, also came across this,

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5abce666ed915d44e8dfa912/2016_Annual_Report_final.pdf
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2023
     
    I'm curious about the table on p7 of the monthly report aggregate document. In particular the much lower number of cases in the north east of England. Is that just a statistical fluke or is there something different about the plumbing in the north east of England?

1 to 9 of 9

  1.  
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
Back to Discussions Top of Page
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press