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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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    • CommentAuthorCJCurry
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2023 edited
     
    Good afternoon Green Building Hive Mind.

    I'm in the process of renovating my house. It's a stone built, C16th, long, thin, detached off-gas house in the Yorkshire Dales National Park. It's been our family home for several hundred years and I've just taken it on, so it's a bit of a labour of love. It's getting sympathetically double glazed, insulated and generally made as energy-efficient as possible. I'm a tree surgeon and forester by profession, so have almost unlimited amounts of free firewood, which is a resource I'd like to use as my primary heat source. I've removed the very old oil-fired central heating system and designed a new system which I'd like to run by you for comment. Constructive criticism welcome. I've asked my usual plumber but because my needs are a bit non-standard they didn't really get what I'm trying to achieve.

    Essentially, I have a massive 30kw water-jacketed woodburning stove in the big kitchen in the middle of the house. The hope is to burn this fully opened-up for an hour or two on a morning and evening, and keep it ticking over shut down during the day. There are also two smaller stoves with back boilers in the living room and dining room which will be lit in winter. This should fill the 2000l thermal store enough to keep the hot water and underfloor heating topped up constantly - see diagram. If I go away and don't light the stoves, the immersion heaters should kick in, or I'll set them up to be turned on remotely a day before I get back. Equally if the system can't cope with demand, the immersions will take up the slack.

    To anticipate a few queries...
    -All pipe runs will be in 28mm
    -The thermal store is on the first floor and all stoves are on the ground floor, with pipework on a continuous gradient so it should be gravity-fed
    -By the time I've finished all the renovations, there'll be seven bedrooms and five bathrooms, with potentially up to 15 people having hot showers when the house is full, hence the wish for a big unvented DHW cylinder rather than a conventional heat-transfer plate from the thermal store.


    I'd appreciate it if the with experience of similar systems could sense-check this design for me. Thanks!
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2023
     
    Hi Chris, there are several on this site who have log fired wood gasification boilers with their associated accumulator storage tanks, plus various methodologies for delivering DHW from that heat store.
    In my case it's a 42kW boiler a 2500l accumulator, with a plate heat exchanger. I designed and fitted my own system with lots of, mostly manufacturer, help Sweden, Austria, Germany etc. It seems things haven't changed, inasmuch as as the UK plumbing trades generally don't understand these sort of systems. It says a lot about basic hydronic heat transfer teaching I guess.
    The old adage "less is more" springs to mind from your plans. You have three tanks of various sizes when one, maybe larger, tank and a decent large capacity DHW plate heat exchanger, ( despite your reservations ,they work extremely well), and you would save space and lots of superfluous pipework. You could also incorporate two or three immersions into the tank, and a solar thermal coil. Better still would be point of use DHW, especially if you're fortunate enough to have a 3 phase supply.
    At a quick glance of your plans, you may not be aware that dedicated Log gas boilers like mine have a large valve called a Loading Valve which in the initial boiler firing staged effectively short circuits the boiler hot water flow back to the boiler until operating temp is reached, and only then bit by bit. This is to prevent an inrush of cold store water into the boiler thus affecting burning efficiency. I see no reason why such a device wouldn't work for your big burner. I can vouch for the assistance I got from the Swedish manufacturer of mine.
  1.  
    I have a sort of similar system. 40 kW wood burning boiler 2000 ltr TS a 300 ltr DHW cylinder and radiators

    Your design
    I would not bother with the 300 ltr buffer tank for the UFH. I would run the UFH stright off the TS with a thermostatic mixer valve controlling the UHF temp. If the UFH tank is there to be able to use an immersion if the TS is cold then what is the load on the UFH. It is probably going to be a fairly big immersion heater to support the UFH.

    My DHW tank is linked to the TS the same as yours. I have a differential thermostat controlling the DHW tank pump such that when the TS is 3 deg or more hotter than the DHW the pump runs. DHW sensor 2/3 down from the top of the DHW tank and the TS sensor is at the top of the TS. This stops the DHW heating theTS. It works well.

    Depending upon the juxtaposition of the DHW tank and the TS if the DHW is hotter than the TS (e.g. immersion on) then the DHW could thermosyphon to the TS - not what you want in the summer. Perhaps a non-return valve between the two.

    You show a pump on the heat dump circuit with pipes in the sub floor. It is not a good idea to have heat dump circuits needing a pump 'cos when you need the heat dump during a power cut - what happens?

    What controls the heat output of the 30kW boiler? what is the ratio of heat to air and heat to water. Will the space containing this WBS be big enough to cope with the heat to air output when this WBS is on full chat? (ditto the 2 small WBS) I will be surprised if 2 hours morning and evening is enough to keep the TS up to a useful temp.

    I like the idea of everything open vented.
  2.  
    Posted By: owlmanAt a quick glance of your plans, you may not be aware that dedicated Log gas boilers like mine have a large valve called a Loading Valve which in the initial boiler firing staged effectively short circuits the boiler hot water flow back to the boiler until operating temp is reached, and only then bit by bit. This is to prevent an inrush of cold store water into the boiler thus affecting burning efficiency. I see no reason why such a device wouldn't work for your big burner.

    The plan is for the WBS to run on gravity and gravity systems don't use loading valves. Part of the loading valve function is to pump from stove to TS. Also gravity systems tend to the self regulating. when the water temp drops the flow also decreases proportionally.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2023
     
    We've a similarish but smaller set up with a WBS heating a 250ltr DHW tank via gravity and pumped CH once the DHW is up to temp.

    Our stove is 17kw with 12kw to the boiler and 5kw to the room and the room gets too hot at times even with it being open plan lounge/kitchen/dining. Not sure how much your 30kw stove will put out to the room but it could get pretty toasty, especially if you're cooking aswell. Few ideas worth considering-

    If you've got a big thermal mass around the stove you may not need or want to run the stove in the morning as it may well keep the place warm from the evening befores burn. Our kitchen floor is a 6" thick slab with UFH and it's mass coupled with a bulky fireplace/chimney breast means it's only in the coldest of weather that we need to light the stove outside of the evening.

    Have a plan for heating the hot water in the summer as you're not going to want to light the stove. Maybe a solar coil or multiple immersion bosses to heat from PV or grid.

    Have a plan for storing wood and dealing with dust and dirt from the wood/fire- they're messy things

    If you can, duct the combustion air to the stove direct from outside otherwise you're drawing in a lot of cold outside air into the house from to keep your furnace running! I wish I'd done it at build time but didn't and now realise how draughty our house must be to keep the stove burning.

    May be have a longer term plan for heating as tree surgery/ forestry is hard work and you may not always have as much wood available as you do now?? Up until a few years ago a tree surgeon used part of our paddock for processing logs paying his rent in logs for us. He packed up tree work in his late 30s as it was too strenuous- both tree work and processing logs!!
  3.  
    Posted By: philedgeHave a plan for storing wood and dealing with dust and dirt from the wood/fire- they're messy things

    +1
    And from your description of the property ( there'll be seven bedrooms and five bathrooms, with potentially up to 15 people ) plus its location it sounds like it might be linked to the tourist industry. If this is the case then you may want to run your plans past your local environmental health inspector (or what ever they call themselves these days) to make sure he is happy with your plan to put a dirty log burner in the kitchen - and get any positive response in writing in case he changes his area and you get a new person. Don't ask how I know!

    Posted By: philedgeIf you can, duct the combustion air to the stove direct from outside otherwise you're drawing in a lot of cold outside air into the house from to keep your furnace running!

    +1

    Posted By: philedgeMay be have a longer term plan for heating as tree surgery/ forestry is hard work and you may not always have as much wood available as you do now??

    +1
    I run my heating from 7 ha of my own woodland/forest. At age 55 I got the trees felled and stacked by contractors and for the last 10 years I have had someone else convert the logs to 'boiler ready. (usually the tenant who does it for 'free' heating).
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2023
     
    Chris, I think we need to know a bit more about the 30kW WBS ( also room heater?? ) that is the principle heat source for the 2000l accumulator tank. Using it as a " batch burn" device, more esp. now as PiH points out, it's on a gravity circuit; I have doubts about it's ability to produce the massive amount of heat required to charge a 2000l tank in the manner you envisage.
    Dedicated log gas boilers as Peters and mine burn at up to 1000 degrees C at the grate with forced air and take barrowloads of wood in the process, even so they take a while to charge 2 tons of water on pumped circuits.
    • CommentAuthorCJCurry
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2023
     
    Thanks for your comments folks,

    To answer a few (all very sensible) queries:

    -Interesting to hear positive reviews of your DHW plate heat exchanger. A couple of people I’ve spoken to have found that the temperature can drop off halfway through running a bath and they have to stop for a few minutes to allow the water around the plate to get back up to temperature. Does that just mean their TS temperature isn’t high enough? Due to the length of the house I’d be looking at installing a DHW circulator - would that work with a plate do you think?

    -In the event the thermal store gets to boiling point during a power-cut, the backup diesel generator fails, and the pump to the emergency heat dump therefore isn't operational, or if the sub-floor heats to such a high temperature that the heat dump doesn't cool the store enough, the system would just boil over into the header tank and then out of the overflow. It would be a waste of thermal energy as hot water would be spat out into the back yard, but nothing should explode (unless I'm missing something?)

    -Very good point about non-return valves on the coil feeds to prevent thermosyphoning into the thermal store when the immersions are on and the stoves aren’t.

    -Yes, the the UFH tank is there to be able to use an immersion if the TS is colder than the 35-40 degree UFH system. As you say, it will have to be a chunky immersion. The house will be very well insulated in roof, floor and external walls, so hopefully the load shouldn’t be too great once the system is up to temperature. Have you any other suggestions on how to electrically heat a wet UFH system? I was thinking about some sort of high-power in-line instant water heater but couldn’t find any examples of one being used in this context.

    -The 30kw stove is a Henley Druid 30, nominal output 23kw to the water and 7kw to the room.

    -The room is a big open plan kitchen/living/dining (12mx5m) with open stairwell to the back porch/landing and first floor hallway , so I'm reasonably happy 7kw won't be excessive - I do like a warmer room temperature than most. I was also thinking about making some removable insulated doors over the stove alcove to reduce this when needed.

    -Yes, there's a 4" external air supply duct to all three stoves.

    -PV panels and other renewable sources heating immersions are a definite possibility to consider - the panels are probably out of budget at the moment but fitting the immersions in anticipation would be sensible.

    -The stove is at the 'living' end of the kitchen, near the door the logs will be coming in through, so mess and muck will be away from the food prep area

    -I'm not planning on any commercial catering in the kitchen. One end of the house can be closed off and may be let as an airbnb/annex/cottage thing, but this will be self-catered and away from the log mess.

    -My business is a forestry and arboriculture contracting and consultancy firm, and I'm increasingly using employees for the practical side and spending my time surveying and desk-based - unless the trees stop growing or the business goes south, my wood supply isn't dependent on my own physical health.

    -By my calculations, raising the temperature of the 2000l thermal store from 20 degrees to 80 degrees will require about 140kwh, so about 6 hours of burning the stove at 23kw output to the water. I'm hoping that this would only be required on returning from holiday when the system's fully cooled, and that normally it would just be a case of 'topping-up' the store. Under normal circumstances a full store's worth of energy wouldn't be used up in one day, and the immersions should take up the slack if there's a full house and there's a lot of demand.

    -I have considered a log gasification boiler such as Peter and Owlman use. I’d much rather have something inside the main house which I can load up in a dressing gown first thing in the morning while the kettle boils. I’d like to see the flames and for the stove to be the heart of the household… but maybe I’m being overly romantic and a log gasification boiler is really what I need!?

    Cheers folks, all good food for thought, any further comments very welcome!
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2023 edited
     
    Hi Chris, there's lots there to get ones head around so answers may be piecemeal. Firstly, plate heat exchangers; their obvious advantage is that you are not storing DHW and you can eliminate all the associated tanks etc. it however does require you to maintain a certain temperature in your principle hot water store. Depending on the pipework runs and accounting for pipework losses, ( this also applies to all DHW delivery systems ), you could be looking at quite a few degrees above the required tap temperature. By sizing the exchanger correctly and getting a suitable device to start with is essential, but the technology works fine. Industry has been using PHx systems for many years.

    IMO by far the best system system for DHW supply is electric point of use heaters, pipework etc is kept to a minimum with just a cold supply and a power cable. Most sinks and basins can work fine AFAIK on 230V. The problem is always with showers, and 230V doesn't give the good shower experience IMO it's just not "wet" enough. For that you need a three phase supply. or some other shower/bath water solution.

    I did some fancy pipework by inserting a solar thermal DHW tank ( works brilliantly BTW ), with a change lever. During the Summer months we manage on solar DHW totally. In winter I flip the change lever and then my winter slightly pre heated Solar supply feeds the PHx. Basically I'm just diverting the exchanger cold mains feed via the solar cylinder. The few degrees of Winter pre heated Solar water means the exchanger doesn't have to work so hard.

    I had a quick glance at the Henley Druid 30, and no other way to say this, but I don't think it's up to the task you're setting it. All such "room heaters" with an added water jacket are only meant for heating smaller water tanks of some description, not a two ton accumulator.
    I also have an open fire in my living room with a decent sized water jacket gravity feeding either a towel rad in the bathroom or into my accumulator on a pumped circuit , and it all works fine in but I couldn't rely on it instead of my log gas boiler as a true store principle heat source.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2023 edited
     
    Regarding phx, my mums heating system (40kw pellet boiler, 1000l buffer ( runs 60-80 degrees)) for an epc D/E rated annex and house respectively), uses phx to seperate the boiler/ buffer water from the seperate annexe/house heating systems ( this was to prevent contamination between old and new installs as well as in the event of a leak in house or annexe risk a ton of water escaping.
    Plates were rated at 25 and 40 kw respectively and effectively work so well that you wouldn’t know they were there. ( ie, it’s as if you were flowing hot water from the buffer around the systems)
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