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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2024
     
    My ageing logwood gasification boiler may need replacing in the Summer, so I'm considering various options.
    The CH system and DHW, ( plate heat exchanger ) are currently fed from the large 2000l accumulator tank. This bit of the overall boiler set up works fine, and I'd like to leave this bit in situ.
    The logwood boiler however could do with upgrading, and as I get older a replacement pellet boiler seems to be worth consideration. I'm familiar with how they work and there appears to be a decent choice albeit EU based suppliers. What concerns me is their suitability for batch burn re-charging of such a large store. I can't seem to figure out if they are technically more suited to slower modulating burning more suited to direct connection to a CH system, simple in out, flow and return.
    Burning logwood involves the fast, fierce, recharge burn and I wonder if using this methodology every two or three days but running on maximum with a pellet boiler would be unwise.
    Does anyone use a pellet boiler with a large re-chargeable accumulator tank, any info would be appreciated. Suppliers I've spoken to either don't know or recon its OK, but then they would say that.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2024 edited
     
    It’s not really how they are designed to work but if you’re happy with the standing losses you will incur then no reason why not. The boiler i look after for a relative, is 40kw and has a 1000l buffer tank, the boiler is a european polish design resold in UK by trianco ( though they’ve exited the market now), pretty agricultural in terms of build , but easy to look after ( a half day clean each six months and ash pan clean weekly) no major problems with it in 9 years but took a while to learn its foibles and have a couple of parts modified to make servicing much easier.

    In the summer if there is only the householder at home, the boiler is only doing hot water and the buffer tank once charged covers that need for 3-4 days. Tank charges to 80 degrees then depletes to 60 when boiler kicks in and recharges, you can alter those parameters if you wish.

    You can extend the 6 monthly servicing, but in our boiler the build up of deposits in the boiler tubes starts to reduce efficiency , this is seen by the incresed flue temperatures when boiler is running hard. So basically you’re chucking more heat than need be out the flue.

    Obviously there are a huge range of boilers available. Downsides is that with the demise of domestic rhi the market collapsed and all the installers hung up there stetsons and disappeared, getting a service engineer is nigh ( in reality is) impossible unless you have one that lives very close by. So unless you can set up an arrangement before hand think of it being a diy servicing/ maintenance route.

    Next - have you seen the price of pellets- we take 7 tonne blown deliveries ( supplier charges extra under 5 tonnes and likes us to take as much as possible) with a reasonabe winter and using the log burners in the house , this lasts about a year. We started paying 200 / tonne in 2015 last load was 535.

    If you are keen on going the pellet boiler route, keep an eye on ebay, plenty of systems get taken out each year and sold off, people are very optimistic as to what they’re worth, you’ll probably be able to pick up a full system with suitably sized buffer tank ( rule of thumb is 25mlitres per kwh) then you’ll have the boiler operating as it should and probably find one that has weather comp with the right controls.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2024
     
    Thanks Phil, I've serviced my own log boiler for years so the practical side worries me less than the availability of spares. I'd have to go for bagged supply because of space, so more expensive I guess. I did spot a decent used one on Facebook marketplace that may be worth investigation.
    I've also recently had a look at the combination log and pellet boilers although so far I'm unconvinced of how two different systems can be successfully shoehorned into one cabinet with both using the same water transfer heat exchanger.
  1.  
    Posted By: owlmanI'd have to go for bagged supply because of space, so more expensive I guess.

    If you need bagged supply does this imply that there is no room for a silo and screw feed? So you are still carrying fuel from store to boiler - Is this so much easier than what you do today.

    have you investigated the possibility of an A2W heat pump? That will be my move when my system (or me) gets too old to be serviceable. (the boiler is now 28 years old)
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2024
     
    Mechanical spares for the boiler we have are available with a bit of effort, but we bought a boiler that had been removed elsewhere ( found for me by someone on gbf in another thread) that has many of the less likely to need replacing and so expensive spares on it if needed. Temperature probes i ordered from europe and weren’t too dear ( no doubt someone who understands such things would be able to source a suitable replacement in uk), the electronics would likely be the bits that possibly would be problematic , they would need to come from the polish supplier.
    For some sort of comfidence in support and spares , i’d probably be inclined to look at the established austrian manufacturers that also do commercial boilers. At the time Froeling ( not sure on spelling) were the ones that i was leaning towards, but they were horrendously expensive new.
    I looked at the combined boilers, but at the time finding an installer willing to supply and install one under rhi/mcs was impossible ( they all wanted to chuck in cheap pellet boilers, which is partly why the whole scheme turned into a disaster for many who had them installed). The ones looked into seemed to work on the basis of a pellet boilers burner pot , feed system and pellet store bolted onto the side of a log boiler , the hot gases then drawn past the log boilers heat exchanger, seemed a sensible approach and no reason why it wouldn’t work. I liked the idea of being able to buy cheap logs for burns you did when convenient , with the pellet burner automatically kicking in for the times it was required. Apparently it was the log burning that meant they were problematic under rhi.
    Pellets by the bag are in a way more convenient, delivered by the pallet and in 10kg bags easy to handle. But pallet delivery soon adds around ÂŁ80 ish to a tonne of already expensive pellets. But if only burning a couple of tonnes a year to make the work of batch burning logs less onerous, the expense is maybe worthwhile.
    Mums boiler has a 140kg hopper, in summer for hot water only that would last 1-3 months depending on how many people are there, in a cold winter as little as 2 days if the log stoves aren’t used. We keep a tonne in bags , just in case there are problems with the feed auger from main pellet store, innthe early days we had issues with bridging and learning the position needed for the baffle plate, a couple of occasions where there were bits of bulk bag in the pellets that bound the auger up and the crash mat ( sits infront of the pellet fill inlet to stop the incoming pellets hitting the other side of store and being shattered) gave up the ghost in year 7 and worked its way down to block the pellet outlet.
    Finding a combined log/pellet boiler secondhand may be a bit of a challenge, have you space for and sufficient additional ports on your tank to run a seperate pellet boiler in tandem, it’d also give redundancy if issues with either boiler. Plenty of circa 20kwh pellet boilers turning up on the auction site over time.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2024 edited
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
    Posted By: owlmanI'd have to go for bagged supply because of space, so more expensive I guess.

    If you need bagged supply does this imply that there is no room for a silo and screw feed? So you are still carrying fuel from store to boiler - Is this so much easier than what you do today.

    have you investigated the possibility of an A2W heat pump? That will be my move when my system (or me) gets too old to be serviceable. (the boiler is now 28 years old)




    Hi Peter yes no space for a bulk, auger fed system.
    I'd looked at the business end of these machines and they are actually quite small. Usually three components; the burner, the heat exchange/exhaust, and the hopper in gravity fed devices, either above or at the side.
    The A2W pumps don't appear to reach the temps to charge a buffer tank. Furthermore monoblock ones create all sorts of pipe run difficulties for me. So if I went down that route I have to go for a split system with the heat exchanger next to the store, refrigerant pipework being easier to route an with less pipework losses.
  2.  
    Posted By: owlmanThe A2W pumps don't appear to reach the temps to charge a buffer tank.

    When I move to a heat pump my plan is to run the system without a buffer tank with the heat pump supplying the rads direct or at most very small one just enough to prevent short cycling.
    I have collected some data on my current system and in January(s) I can heat the houses with a flow of 55 - 60 deg. with the CH pump running 7 - 12 hours a day so my guess is that an A2W HP would cope with a flow temp of 55 deg. in the cold months which should be doable.

    DHW is still an open question, either stay with my summer option all year around (direct immersion heater) or supply from the HP. I'm tending towards the summer option because of less complexities and I have enough PV to cover my annual kWh demand.

    Wot about A2A to get away from burning stuff - especially processed stuff AKA pellets
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2024
     
    AIUI, high temperature A2W pumps have no difficulty providing DHW these days, although/and technology is improving all the time.
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