Green Building Forum - Carbon capture and storage again

Carbon capture and storage again

djh — Tue, 20 Feb 2024 17:52:03 +0000

Another idea on how to capture CO2 from the atmosphere and store it. Possibly a little more sensible than many attempts.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ad0924/pdf

Carbon capture and storage again

tony — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 07:33:05 +0000

Trees do it nicely too

Carbon capture and storage again

fostertom — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 08:32:55 +0000

Looks convincingly complicated - might be the one. I'll wait till someone (inevitably, Guardian) writes it up for laymen!

Carbon capture and storage again

philedge — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 16:39:11 +0000

Sounds much easier to eat more kebabs for a few years and turn our moorland into woodland. Sheep farmers have always moaned there's no money in it so it won't cost much to comandere their land and cover their lost income.

Got a feeling the new land payment scheme may offer that as one of the many things land owners an get paid for??

Carbon capture and storage again

Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:11:11 +0000

Turning "rewilding" pastures into woodland is not without its problems. Its not just the vegetation that undergoes a change, all the wild life (birds, insects et al) has to change because too many species are habitat specific e.g. the chalk blue butterfly already a conservation concern would disappear from the south downs if the grazing stopped. It will many years to establish a new balance that the grazed lands have taken hundreds of years to establish. Most birds of prey need open land to thrive so they will largely be lost.

Yes sheep farmers complain there is no money in it but this is the fault of successive governments wanting cheap food on the shelves and giving farmers subsidies so that the wholesalers can reduce the farm gate price but the subsidies don't make up the difference sufficiently and the big players can collectively control the market.

Rewilding, greening the countryside, set aside and Natura 2000 etc. are all schemes aimed at modifying the way the land stewards (AKA farmers) are paid by society to manage the land the way society wants it managed and to look. If society wants the landscape to be or to look in a particular way then society must (in part at least) foot the bill.

And on the carbon capture scheme above - sounds almost too good to be true. Drill a hole, get the thermal energy out and use that to capture the carbon and pump it down the hole from which you are extracting the energy - which is used to capture more carbon...........there has to be a catch somewhere.

Carbon capture and storage again

fostertom — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:08:44 +0000

Because it sounds like perpetual motion? But it's not - it's an energy-consuming process powered by by a local-freak opportunity to tap earth's core-reactor output at unusually useable delta-t.

Carbon capture and storage again

Doubting_Thomas — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 11:17:25 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryRewilding, greening the countryside, set aside and Natura 2000 etc. are all schemes aimed at modifying the way the land stewards (AKA farmers) are paid by society to manage the land the way society wants it managed and to look. If society wants the landscape to be or to look in a particular way then society must (in part at least) foot the bill.

Whilst I agree, there's an argument to say that society already does foot the bill for the landscape to look a certain way, in the form of Common Agricultural Policy subsidies.

The bigger issue is that actually, quite a lot of society probably doesn't want the landscape to look re-wilded, at least in the short term. We're used to how a lot of so-called 'wild' areas look at the moment (i.e. bare of trees and scrub). Getting people used to a genuinely un-grazed landscape is going to require a lot of PR and patience!

Carbon capture and storage again

fostertom — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 13:54:13 +0000

Posted By: philedgeturn our moorland into woodland

Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary"rewilding" pastures into woodland

No one shd be assuming that that's what rewilding means. Rewilding starts with the belief (many say scientific fact) that maximum biodiversity and maximum density of life is the biggest and best route to restoring biosphere resilience and to processing the overload of toxics that we've created lately. And that those maxima establish themselves, at little cost financially or in scarce/expert human resources, by simply stopping interfering with land and sea and letting nature take its course - and it's been found that nature achieves that, when allowed, effortlessly and with astonishing speed.

However, 'stopping interfering' is hard to do - means taking down fences over enormous areas, re-seeding things like wolves and bison ... not going to happen, except in remote parts of central Europe, where it actually never quite stopped.

So after a short while of experience, rewilding has changed - no longer completely 'hands off', but expertly simulating same, as best poss. In that, it's been found, for Britain at least, that wild ponies esp Dartmoor ponies get close to simulating the beneficial effects of a range of free-ranging megafauna. Add highland cattle, great bison - even better. Largely shut out/cull sheep and deer, if wolves can't be deployed.

The effect, on pasture or moorland, is unlikely to mean full-forest. Current research shows that full-forest was never the predominant state, in Britain. With sheep and deer reduced to marginal, shrubby undergrowth quickly grows, succeeded by trees. Megafauna uproot and trample areas of same, leaving sky-view clearings where undergrowth starts again, followed by young trees again - the cycle continues - a mix of woodland and clearings, full cover and open sky - varied habitat where the widest range of plant and animal can find their niches.

And so can employment-intensive eco-tourism, it seems. Some farming small-holdings too. If better prosperity and more jobs were welcomed, compared to stubborn 'doesn't pay' entitlement, then job done, no need to trace blame to govt subsidies, or lack, of reluctant 'stewards'. But every small-c conservative instinct is deeply offended. There's the rub.

Carbon capture and storage again

djh — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 16:55:34 +0000

Posted By: Doubting_ThomasGetting people used to a genuinely un-grazed landscape is going to require a lot of PR and patience!

Seems fairly easy. Ask them "Do you want heat waves, floods, gales, fires to continue and get worse or do you want some gorse and heather and trees instead of sheep and grass?"

Carbon capture and storage again

fostertom — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 17:45:00 +0000

If only

Carbon capture and storage again

Jonti — Sat, 24 Feb 2024 21:19:43 +0000

Posted By: djh
Posted By: Doubting_ThomasGetting people used to a genuinely un-grazed landscape is going to require a lot of PR and patience!
Seems fairly easy. Ask them "Do you want heat waves, floods, gales, fires to continue and get worse or do you want some gorse and heather and trees instead of sheep and grass?"

The problem is not that it is grazed but rather the amount of grazing. In the Scottish Highlands there are vast areas of land that have been left completely alone but due to the over population of deer fails to regenerate and woodland.

There needs to be a big picture policy with clear emphasis on what need to happen to achieve it rather than what needs to be avoided which is the tendency with legislation.

Carbon capture and storage again

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 07:49:00 +0000

Posted By: JontiThe problem is not that it is grazed but rather the amount of grazing. In the Scottish Highlands there are vast areas of land that have been left completely alone but due to the over population of deer fails to regenerate and woodland.

+1
The failure to (properly) manage the wild grazing animals population (primarily various types of deer) is IMO down to 2 reasons, first the desire for the hunting industry to have easy targets and secondly the lack of finances to manage the population properly in areas not subject to the hunting industry. (In Hungary the over population of deer and wild boar is as a result of the first reason - the hunting societies want easy targets - this causes much friction between hunters and agriculture)

Of course the reintroduction of the predators, wolf packs, bears, and lynx, once native to the UK would help solve this problem and create a balanced population of wild life but I suspect the Ramblers Association et al would object to packs of wolves etc. inhabiting places they wish to roam

Carbon capture and storage again

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 11:12:56 +0000

Ramblers Assoc are campaigning in favour of rewilding and predator reintroduction. One of the benefits is eco tourism, IE more and better rambling, on land that is currently degraded by overgrazing and where access is restricted by hunting.

https://www.rewild.scot/about

The resistance is sheep farmers, understandably concerned about losses.

The wolves/bears/lynx/eagles in the Alps don't seem to have much impact on desire of UK tourists to go walking there!

Carbon capture and storage again

Jonti — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 16:53:47 +0000

But if you talk to the farmers in the effected areas in Switzerland then they will tell you the impact of predators on grazing stock can be significant. In addition, it have been cases of wolves stalking school children on the way school recorded.

The excess wild deer population in the Highlands could be talked in a cost effective manner and will need to be BEFORE any reintroduction of predators. If not, predators will have little impact for several generations before they too grow to an unsustainable population that sees a collapse of the deer population leaving a lot of hungry predators.

Of course a cull of the wild deer population would lead to a collapse of the venison price with knock on effects to the large estates hunting business. It will not be an easy problem to solve.

Carbon capture and storage again

philedge — Sun, 25 Feb 2024 17:22:10 +0000

Mindful of the thread title, we should probably eat more venison/lamb/mutton kebabs for a few years then plant the woodland and let it mature.

Let a few deer go in 50 years specially bred with sharp antlers and only allow hunting with police style truncheons. When the hunters have given up/been wiped out, let a few wolves go if needed.