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    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2024
     
    Hi all

    I know this topic may well have been covered quite a bit on here before but I'm exploring the possibility of installing (DIY) an external air to air heating system for the ground floor of my small, old property (1800).

    I just wanted to canvass opinions on the viability of such a project or perhaps get in touch (privately) with anyone with similar installs.

    The space to be heated is open plan, approx. 419 sq feet / 39 sq metres. I could run ducting through the void in the floor. All external walls will be insulated with 60-80mm wood fibre board, windows are double gazed but old. I hope to have a wood burner in one of the chimneys too.

    What kind of performance can I expect (South East of England) and what are the downsides? And is this something I could DIY myself (apart from the commissioning)?

    One of the reasons this topic has become current for me is there is someone local selling 2 brand new unwanted cast iron radiators (2K each) which would be perfect for my house if I was going to use my boiler. They are selling at a fraction of the retail price, but i don't want to commit if I end up not using them as you can imagine shifting them on at 182KG will be a bit of a nightmare.


    Many thanks.
  1.  
    Hello kristeva,

    I don't have any sort of heat pump, but to improve the response you get from those in the know, I think you probably ought to include some information about the existing building fabric (walls, roof, slab).

    Whilst the (internal?) insulation will help improve u-values, to get a more accurate picture of your heating demand it would be better to include something for the basic elements first.

    Photos & plans/elevations would be a bonus.

    You might want to try out the Heat Punk website to get a better idea of the factors involved in sizing a heat pump and the expected running costs etc.

    https://heatpunk.co.uk/home

    No affiliation (or guarantees!), I just like the simplicity of the interface.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2024
     
    Posted By: kristevais this something I could DIY myself
    AIUI, the main factor in whether you can install it (apart from any planning or building regs issues?) is whether you need F-gas certification (or any other certification?) to connect the refrigerant pipes. This obviously depends on what refrigerant is used, and what type of unit it is. Split units or mini-splits will require a connection. Old fashioned through-window types won't.
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2024 edited
     
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasHello kristeva,

    I don't have any sort of heat pump, but to improve the response you get from those in the know, I think you probably ought to include some information about the existing building fabric (walls, roof, slab).

    Whilst the (internal?) insulation will help improve u-values, to get a more accurate picture of your heating demand it would be better to include something for the basic elements first.

    Photos & plans/elevations would be a bonus.

    You might want to try out the Heat Punk website to get a better idea of the factors involved in sizing a heat pump and the expected running costs etc.

    https://heatpunk.co.uk/home" rel="nofollow" >https://heatpunk.co.uk/home

    No affiliation (or guarantees!), I just like the simplicity of the interface.


    Hi Thomas,

    Thanks for the link to Heat Punk, looks like I'll have to dive into that.

    My house is solid brick 9" (converted farm). I was hoping someone here might be able to share their experience of a similar set up. I've had feedback that its not actually as economical as a gas boiler due to its electricity consumption in the worst of winter.
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2024
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: kristevais this something I could DIY myself
    AIUI, the main factor in whether you can install it (apart from any planning or building regs issues?) is whether you need F-gas certification (or any other certification?) to connect the refrigerant pipes. This obviously depends on what refrigerant is used, and what type of unit it is. Split units or mini-splits will require a connection. Old fashioned through-window types won't.


    Hi djh

    Thanks, is there a good web resource explaining all this? So far all I've found are charity backed eco sites that tell you nothing of any substance or use and installers trying to sell their wares.

    I'm guessing I'll need F-gas qualified installer to commission the unit and sign it off. I'll speak to my BC officer next week as he's due round to check my bathroom install. I must confess I have no idea what a 'through-window' or 'split unit' is.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2024
     
    Your installer has to install it!

    "It is against the law to work with F gas if you do not have the correct qualifications."

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/qualifications-required-to-work-on-equipment-containing-f-gas
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2024
     
    You can get a few r290 units that are legal to diy. And there are ‘in room’ units, like oversize radiators with two large holes for external airflow - these will be noisier than the standard approach though. A pro split a/c install is however not that expensive, so unless you’re experienced or super keen, best to get a pro. I suggest don’t buy a unit; find a f-gas a/c installer, let them buy and fit what they’re used to.
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2024
     
    Posted By: RobLYou can get a few r290 units that are legal to diy. And there are ‘in room’ units, like oversize radiators with two large holes for external airflow - these will be noisier than the standard approach though. A pro split a/c install is however not that expensive, so unless you’re experienced or super keen, best to get a pro. I suggest don’t buy a unit; find a f-gas a/c installer, let them buy and fit what they’re used to.


    Thanks Rob, I'll look into the cost of an installer.
  2.  
    I don't have a heat pump but I have read up 'cos that is the direction to go when my wood burner boiler expires.
    As far as I can see most of the bad press about heat pumps is because they have been under spec'd.

    Your plan of 9" brick with 80 mm WF doesn't give a very good U value. A quick calc. showed U = 0.43 with a condensation risk if it is IWI. I don't like the idea of organic materials as EWI unless there is a good rain screen outboard. e.g. timber cladding. WF as IWI I would be concerned about damp joists = rot unless you can guarantee a v. good VCL, not that easy.

    9" brick with 100 mm EPS gives U = 0.33 and with 150 mm EPS U = 0.23 (both as EWI)

    If the window frames are in good nick then IMO not worth changing. (If you were thinking of that).
  3.  
    Internal wall insulation will move the dew point within the construction and this may cause issues with the existing structure. The external stone or brickwork and pointing will need to be assessed and repaired if in poor order to reduce the passage of moisture to what will become a colder wall.

    Standard U-value calculations will not correctly account for the sorption properties of wood fibres nor their ability to pass on liquid water through capillary action. This means they will always show condensation risk.

    For IWI a WUFI calculation is a useful check - this purely considers moisture issues and how the various elements of the building fabric will deal with the moisture volumes based on site-specific conditions. Working for a company that makes WF IWI, I always recommend a WUFI assessment for any internal insulation works.

    Having said that, we have conducted multiple real-world measured tests of IWI in various exposure zones and the actual risk of condensation is very low as long as underlying sources of dampness have been ameliorated before installation. This applies to most natural insulations, but woodfibre in particular has been found to reduce the moisture content of damp structural timbers due to its sorption properties.

    If it’s of interest, the ASBP have a webinar on natural IWI: https://asbp.org.uk/webinar-recording/rethinking-iwi-with-natural-fibre-insulation

    Despite the scaremongering, there is no issue with woodfibre for external insulation. Our own WF boards for EWI have a hydrophobic coating that allows them to be used behind a rainscreen (or roof tiles) without any additional membranes. When directly rendered they are incredibly robust and weatherproof. Due to the WF density they tend to resist external damage better than EPS insulations more commonly used.

    Like any type of weatherproofing, they are only as good as the installation and ongoing maintenance allow!
  4.  
    Posted By: sgt_wouldsFor IWI a WUFI calculation is a useful check


    To add to sgt_woulds point, several companies (possibly theirs) offer WUFI calculations as part of the process of ordering the woodfibre insulation since it is such a critical part of the choice. Definitely something to ask for when calling around.


    Posted By: kristevaI've had feedback that its not actually as economical as a gas boiler


    The boiler vs heat pump economics argument is an interesting one because heat pumps come under a lot of scrutiny that boilers usually don't in this regard. There are a number of good discussions about this on twitter, including this thread where I got the image below. The short answer is it comes down to the COP of the heat pump, so getting a reputable manufacturer and installer will be crucial:

    https://x.com/janrosenow/status/1493907299546636292

    Others may be able to share some real world experiences.
      Heat Pump.jpg
  5.  
    On your original query about the cast iron radiators, I'd point to @lzmddngs on twitter who produced the useful image below. Once you know your heat demand you can figure out what size radiator will be required to output that amount of heat. If the cast iron ones are new they should have performance data that can tell you what they'll kick out.
      Radiators.jpg
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2024
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryI don't have a heat pump but I have read up 'cos that is the direction to go when my wood burner boiler expires.
    As far as I can see most of the bad press about heat pumps is because they have been under spec'd.

    Your plan of 9" brick with 80 mm WF doesn't give a very good U value. A quick calc. showed U = 0.43 with a condensation risk if it is IWI. I don't like the idea of organic materials as EWI unless there is a good rain screen outboard. e.g. timber cladding. WF as IWI I would be concerned about damp joists = rot unless you can guarantee a v. good VCL, not that easy.

    9" brick with 100 mm EPS gives U = 0.33 and with 150 mm EPS U = 0.23 (both as EWI)

    If the window frames are in good nick then IMO not worth changing. (If you were thinking of that).


    Thanks Peter.
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2024
     
    Posted By: sgt_wouldsInternal wall insulation will move the dew point within the construction and this may cause issues with the existing structure. The external stone or brickwork and pointing will need to be assessed and repaired if in poor order to reduce the passage of moisture to what will become a colder wall.

    Standard U-value calculations will not correctly account for the sorption properties of wood fibres nor their ability to pass on liquid water through capillary action. This means they will always show condensation risk.

    For IWI a WUFI calculation is a useful check - this purely considers moisture issues and how the various elements of the building fabric will deal with the moisture volumes based on site-specific conditions. Working for a company that makes WF IWI, I always recommend a WUFI assessment for any internal insulation works.

    Having said that, we have conducted multiple real-world measured tests of IWI in various exposure zones and the actual risk of condensation is very low as long as underlying sources of dampness have been ameliorated before installation. This applies to most natural insulations, but woodfibre in particular has been found to reduce the moisture content of damp structural timbers due to its sorption properties.

    If it’s of interest, the ASBP have a webinar on natural IWI:https://asbp.org.uk/webinar-recording/rethinking-iwi-with-natural-fibre-insulation" rel="nofollow" >https://asbp.org.uk/webinar-recording/rethinking-iwi-with-natural-fibre-insulation

    Despite the scaremongering, there is no issue with woodfibre for external insulation. Our own WF boards for EWI have a hydrophobic coating that allows them to be used behind a rainscreen (or roof tiles) without any additional membranes. When directly rendered they are incredibly robust and weatherproof. Due to the WF density they tend to resist external damage better than EPS insulations more commonly used.

    Like any type of weatherproofing, they are only as good as the installation and ongoing maintenance allow!


    sgt, thanks for this, very interesting.

    May I PM you?
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2024
     
    Posted By: Doubting_Thomas
    Posted By: sgt_wouldsFor IWI a WUFI calculation is a useful check


    To add to sgt_woulds point, several companies (possibly theirs) offer WUFI calculations as part of the process of ordering the woodfibre insulation since it is such a critical part of the choice. Definitely something to ask for when calling around.


    Posted By: kristevaI've had feedback that its not actually as economical as a gas boiler


    The boiler vs heat pump economics argument is an interesting one because heat pumps come under a lot of scrutiny that boilers usually don't in this regard. There are a number of good discussions about this on twitter, including this thread where I got the image below. The short answer is it comes down to the COP of the heat pump, so getting a reputable manufacturer and installer will be crucial:

    https://x.com/janrosenow/status/1493907299546636292

    Others may be able to share some real world experiences.
      http:///newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=8703" alt="Heat Pump.jpg" >


    Thanks Thomas, I did a bit of dive into COP after you posted this. I thought Owlman had installed air to air, maybe he doesn't visit this site anymore.
    • CommentAuthorkristeva
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2024
     
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasOn your original query about the cast iron radiators, I'd point to @lzmddngs on twitter who produced the useful image below. Once you know your heat demand you can figure out what size radiator will be required to output that amount of heat. If the cast iron ones are new they should have performance data that can tell you what they'll kick out.
      http:///newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=8704" alt="Radiators.jpg" >


    I wasn't actually planning on using the rads with a heat pump, they were earmarked for use with my boiler. I suspect the owner on FB may have already sold them however. I didn't expect them to hang around long as she was selling them cheap.
  6.  
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasThere are a number of good discussions about this on twitter, including this thread where I got the image below. The short answer is it comes down to the COP of the heat pump, so getting a reputable manufacturer and installer will be crucial:

    A good COP is vital. The answer to a happy heat pump owner is getting the spec. right (err on the side of a bit over sized rather than a bit under). Too many heat pumps in new builds are based on the theoretical values of the build plan rather than the actual build that has all sorts of flaws due to rushed or/and slap-dash work resulting in incomplete and substandard insulation and poor air tightness - which then translates to a poor COP - which then generates bad press about HPs rather than the build quality.

    For a retrofit calculating the heat demand can be difficult when there are a lot of unknowns. For my place I have a rough idea of the wall and floor construction but for the most part it is guess work and after that there are varying U values depending who's figures you use. On top of that it is next to impossible to measure the heat demand used on a wood burning boiler.The approach I have used is to put a heat meter on my CH so that I know the exact heat demand for each month and daily for January. I am hoping that when the time comes the historical data will guide the supplier/installer to the correct bit of kit.

    If you have a gas or oil boiler you could use the fuel used as a check against the heat loss calculations to verify the spec of the HP. (take the summer fuel used away from the winter fuel to remove the DHW demand from the winter usage).
  7.  
    I've had an ecodan air to water pump in my existing homev for 9 years without issue or repairs.

    I've also had 2 air to air heat pumps in both my wife's shop and my commercial office. Both without issues, one is about 7 years old and runs 24 hours a day.

    For the area given of 39m2 I'm sure an air to air will be fine.

    My personal preference is a wet system though as I find air blowing around the room isn't the most comfortable...
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