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Housing - Renovation: My first barn conversion

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    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2008
     
    Hi,
    I just joined this forum a few hours ago because I think this could be a useful tool to find out more about green building.
    My husband and I bought some old barns in gloucestershire and are awaiting planning permission (hopefully) soon. What we would like to do is making the place as sustainable and environmentally friendly as possible, within a limited budget and we will most of it do ourselfs. I am completely new to building a house and looking really froward to this challenge: therefore I'd would like to ask for tipps & tricks, do's and don'ts you may can give me at this early stage...

    Thanks in advance & be sure to read from me again!

    Malayka
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2008
     
    Don't spend money! Like you say do a lot yourself. Make it well so insulated that you don't need a heating system or the bills that go with it, air sealed (no drafts), use local materials.

    Read a few threads on here -- solar hw, MHRV, 3g windows, aim better than Passivhaus standard.
    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2008
     
    thanks tony, I will read a few threads on here...it's just all so confusing at first sight...all these different systems etc...

    M.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 28th 2008
     
    What are the barns built of? walls? roof?
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2008
     
    if you are doing it all yourself, i would advise that you get a professional involved somewhere along the line.

    get an Architect (find a local guy that s clued up on the green issues) and then you will at least have some input in the works that you are doing yourself are right.

    Architect costs money?
    getting it right first time will save you more than his fees, believe me.

    this is particularly true if you combine the fact that you havn't done it before, AND are unfamiliar with the industry
    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeMay 30th 2008 edited
     
    Hi,
    the barns are built of cotswold stone, the roof (clay tiles) is pretty much intact, there are a few A- frames which need replacement, it's quite a big place, 350m2. One two storey barn & a long, L-shaped one storey barn...so. lot's to do.
    Yes, we have an architect involved. he did the plans for the planning/building authorities. When/if we get planning permission we will work with with a bulider, but we thought that he may works more as an advisor...

    Is there any literature you can recommend on how taking on a barn conversion? (sounds silly, i know...) because, to be honest, i don't have the slightest idea of how to start such a project...

    In my ideal world i would like to reuse as much as possible of the material which is already on site. (the bricks on the floors etc., and i also would like to keep the features, there's a foundation of what has been a ciderpress years ago - in my future kitchen!)

    We have an architect, he has all these green ideas, which is great and i would love to realise all of them...but they do cost so, so, so much...where do you draw a line, how far do you go....

    thanks guys, you're really helpful!!!

    Malayka
    • CommentAuthorludite
    • CommentTimeMay 30th 2008
     
    I think Martin Lewis - the money expert from radio 2 has some sound advice. Take a really good look at your OWN lifestyle. If you are building this place for yourself you need to spend all your time taking 'mental walks' through your unbuilt house. Imagine how you will enter the building, which way the doors should open, where you would like the light switches.

    Look at the dwelling you have now, and take a really critical approach to it - what features really work for you and what is not quite right?

    The reason I say this is, it's far easier/cheaper to alter things on paper before they are built, rather than change your mind afterwards.

    Once you know how long (many hours a day) you are going to be in the house, and which rooms you will be in most, and what you will be doing when you are in the rooms, and how many people will be there etc etc, then you can decide if the architects ideas are in sync with yours.

    architects are not mind readers and might assume you will use your home differently.

    Open plan living might look great on paper, but a family has different interests. eg. we live in one room - kitchen - at the moment which means I HAVE to 'watch' cbeebies' (or top gear) rather than something else.

    Malayka, I don't mean to sound so generic, but as you know, this site really bigs up insulation, so, when It comes to that part of the build, ask a specific question about it, so the experts (on the forum) can answer. same with all the other ideas you might have. What I am discovering, is that I need to question every aspect of my lifestyle AND the build of 'my dream home', to make sure that I don't end up with someone elses idea of a dream home - and a nightmare for me.

    welcome to the site:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMay 31st 2008
     
    Malayka,

    It might be worth considering a visit to the BRE in Watford where they are renovating/converting an old stable block. Check with them first on the progress but you will be able to see how they are dealing with renovation issues common to many older buildings using conventional and modern materials and techniques. Their project guys will be helpful I'm sure

    http://www.bre.co.uk/newsdetails.jsp?id=437
  9.  
    Have a look too at the Old Home Superhome web-site. Their members have regular open days.
    • CommentAuthorTerry
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2008
     
    do a lot of reading and ask a lot of questions. There is a lot of info on this forum and even more via the many links provided in the threads.

    lots of good points from Ludite

    re unaffordable options - if there is something you feel may be worthwhile and affordable or indeed essential in the future try to include pipe runs/ducts/wiring when building so as to make retro-fitting easy. This might also stretch to having easily adjustable layouts for future occupancy changes, such as elderly parents moving in, or planning for your own old age. With a big place, try to design in a layout which allows flexibility for isolating one part as a self contained unit for renting out or an office (or the parents as above)etc. Flexibility for the future is the key, whether staying long term or for increasing appeal if selling on.
    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008 edited
     
    It's unbelievable, i just heard back from the planning authorities; all "contemporary additions" are okay, BUT they have a problem with the size of the walled vegetable garden (too big !!!) and we have applied for an earthbund (noiseprotection) running along the street/border of our land which is too long in their oppinion (they want an earthbund which is only as long as the barns...).
    i think it's nonesense - the traffic noise doesn't stop at the end of your house???!!!!
    Does anyone know reliable sources regarding traffic noise/earthbundes/noisebarriers which i could quote when meeting the authorities?
    blimey....
    I always thought it's difficult to build in switzerland (where i come from)...BUT...

    Malayka
    • CommentAuthorludite
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    MMMMMMM, a walled vegetable garden. . . . .wonderful idea. . . . . .these people are. . . . . . . DISPICABLE:angry:
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    You may not thank me for this but barn conversions are usually priced at around £1000 /m2.

    Forget about 'the newest technique is..' and concentrate on first principles; moisture prevention and heat retention (airtightness). These buildings were never intended to be lived in and were built accordingly, no conventional foundations here, just big stones placed next to each other if you're lucky.
    For information purposes create a free website using wetpaint - which is a wiki tool that you can allow anyone to edit. Take plenty of photos and arrange them into files internal/ external, barn1, barn2. access road, entrance, etc.
    Theres a thread in the products category (top left of this page ) on using Hemcrete in a barn which should be a good place to start. If you can accommodate people in tents then organise workshops - people will pay to come and help if they are learning hands on skills or simply escaping the rat race for a change of pace. The project could generate income through a book, video, organising workshops, published diary, a blog, etc. Look into schemes like wwoofers (http://www.wwoof.org) for free labour if you can provide some accommodation for travellers.
    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: ali.gill</cite>You may not thank me for this but barn conversions are usually priced at around £1000 /m2.

    Forget about 'the newest technique is..' and concentrate on first principles; moisture prevention and heat retention (airtightness). These buildings were never intended to be lived in and were built accordingly, no conventional foundations here, just big stones placed next to each other if you're lucky.
    For information purposes create a free website using wetpaint - which is a wiki tool that you can allow anyone to edit. Take plenty of photos and arrange them into files internal/ external, barn1, barn2. access road, entrance, etc.
    Theres a thread in the products category (top left of this page ) on using Hemcrete in a barn which should be a good place to start. If you can accommodate people in tents then organise workshops - people will pay to come and help if they are learning hands on skills or simply escaping the rat race for a change of pace. The project could generate income through a book, video, organising workshops, published diary, a blog, etc. Look into schemes like wwoofers (<a href="http://www.wwoof.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.wwoof.org</a>) for free labour if you can provide some accommodation for travellers.</blockquote>

    yes, I know it's rare that you don't overrun your budget, even without having bulit/converted anything yet, I do know that..hopefully we can reduce the costs a bit through DIY etc...(Thanks for the great tipps, i surley will foloow these up!!!)

    Malayka
    • CommentAuthortbhulse
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2008
     
    Ali, like the idea about a wiki - just created one for my conversion - http://welshbarnconversion.wetpaint.com/ - very easy to use. WIll add photos tomorrow and update with progress.
  16.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: ali.gill</cite>You may not thank me for this but barn conversions are usually priced at around £1000 /m2.
    </blockquote>

    I must concur with that figure ... without cutting corners you're looking at £800+ m2 and for high-end spec's you can go way beyond the £1000 /m2 figure... so that's a pretty good average.

    My advice would be secure a good builder who has experience of conversions - they are a different type of building, similarly, if you're following the passivhaus route then find an experienced builder, air-tightness and other such requirements are again different to what most builders are used to.

    You may find my site useful ... http://www.mybarnconversion.com/
    • CommentAuthornjtkc
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2008
     
    We have just got planning on our barn and we are researching loads on this site and will watch your with interest.
    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2008
     
    just to keep you up to date...
    we still have no planning permission which is pretty annoying as the summer moves on and we can't start...the planning authorities exceeded their timelimit and there's nothing we can do about it...we did find a builder who agreed to go along side us, helping here and there, giving advice. i am pretty excited about the builder as he understands "the life of a barn" is up for green alternatives etc. at least that ...i know i should see it all positive, but i'm just unpatient at the moment as i don't understand why "they" are making such a drama out of nothing..(while they already agreed on all the new/ultramodern additions)....

    anyway...does anyone know how you can get your VAT back on a self build? or is that only possible when you do a new build/business?

    a pretty frustrated Malayka
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2008
     
    If it is new build then Customs and Excise will give you back all the VAT at the end.

    If you run a business that is a net payer of VAT then you can possibly claim back the VAT via partial exemption.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008
     
    Don't you also get a VAT refund if it's a conversion of a building which wasn't lived in into a domestic one, or has that route gone away?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008 edited
     
    No that's still available..

    You should download a copy of Notice 719 (and 708) and read cover to cover.

    http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000150&propertyType=document

    and then see section 7. "Conversions of non-residential buildings"

    Generally you pay VAT when you buy materials then claim it back at the end. You can't reclaim VAT on everything though (example: not architects fees).

    Builders and other trades should not charge you VAT. If they do and you pay in error then you cannot reclaim it from the VAT man. This can cause problems if you use someone who isn't VAT registered. They have to pay VAT when they buy materials but they can't charge you for it (it should be zero rated from them) nor can't they reclaim so they feel agrieved. Best stick to VAT registered trades or buy your own materials in your name.

    Keep all reciepts even the small ones as it soon adds up. I recommend using an A4 ring binder with plastic inserts. Keep them in date order. If you get a reciepts that include VAT but don't show the amount then file those in a seperate section because that's how the VAT man wants them.

    The reclaim forms may have changed but when we did ours there were sections that no longer have to be completed. Give them a call first before you panic over the amount of data they appear to require.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008
     
    Posted By: Malaykajust to keep you up to date...
    we still have no planning permission which is pretty annoying as the summer moves on and we can't start...the planning authorities exceeded their timelimit and there's nothing we can do about it...


    Well not quite.. If they don't make the 8 week deadline you can appeal for "non-determination". However you must do that within 6 months or you loose the right to do that.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008 edited
     
    For general building questions try http://www.ebuild.co.uk/cgi-bin/forums/discus.pl

    Tips:
    The new thread button appears at the bottom of the page once you drill down to the right section.
    The links at the top allow you to display recent posts.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2008
     
    Buy the latest edition of the "Housebuilder's Bible" by Mark Brinkley that will provide you with a wealth of information relating to costing your build. Perhaps its most useful feature for you is that it takes you through every step of the building process so that you will become familiar with every aspect that you need to watch and control. Worth every penny. Mark is a contributor to this and other self-build forums.
    • CommentAuthorMalayka
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2008
     
    well, that's all very interesting and i downloaded the notice 719, which will be read carefully within the next few days...
    one more question...which is the date that officially starts that 8 week planning permission time / deadline... i'm getting all confused...here's the link to stroud planning/our application...

    http://www.stroud.gov.uk/docs/planning/planning_application_detail.asp?AppRef=S.08/0919/COU

    thanks for your help guys, it's much appreciated!!!!

    Malayka
    • CommentAuthorTerry
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2008
     
    Seem to recall getting a letter back from the council (t'other side of the river from you) stating the date on which our application was recieved. The 8 weeks starts from then me thinks ??
    • CommentAuthorjoe.e
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: MalaykaIt's unbelievable, i just heard back from the planning authorities; all "contemporary additions" are okay, BUT they have a problem with the size of the walled vegetable garden (too big !!!) and we have applied for an earthbund (noiseprotection) running along the street/border of our land which is too long in their oppinion (they want an earthbund which is only as long as the barns...).
    i think it's nonesense - the traffic noise doesn't stop at the end of your house???!!!!
    Does anyone know reliable sources regarding traffic noise/earthbundes/noisebarriers which i could quote when meeting the authorities?
    blimey....
    I always thought it's difficult to build in switzerland (where i come from)...BUT...

    Malayka

    I obviously haven't seen the exact plans, but it might be easier to just accept what they say on that, do the building work and have it inspected, then afterwards when the authorities are no longer involved, go ahead and extend the walled garden anyway. If nobody complains to the planning people then it should be fine. How high are the walls going to be?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2008 edited
     
    As Terry says.. they normally send you a letter with the critical date. Many councils also have on-line access to the database of applications and that sometimes has all the other dates - so you can work out what the latest date is for objections is, then go down and read them. Might even be able to respond to them before the meeting at which the decision will be made.

    EDIT: Just seen your application..

    >Key Dates (last updated 17/07/2008)
    >Application received on 28/04/2008
    >Application validated on 28/04/2008
    >Consultation started on 16/05/2008
    >Consultation will normally finish on 26/05/2008
    >We hope to be able to dispatch the decision notice by 23/06/2008

    Note the target date for the decision is roughly 8 weeks after the date it was recieved.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2008
     
    PS. Now that the 8 week target has passed they are under less pressure to reach a decision quickly. If possible whenever the "ball is with them" fix a date to discuss it with the planning officer. I found that nothing happened for 4 weeks unless I arranged a meeting.

    If the wall issue is the only issue I think I would conceed it to get going. Generally you don't need planning permission to errect a fence or wall on the boundary if it's less than 6ft high but there are exceptions to this.
    • CommentAuthorandrewh
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2008
     
    just a reference to the budget . We employed an architect to do up our already poorly renovated barn. He was expensive (£70 an hour plus vat)but was really clued up on green issues,use of lime etc. We originally got a quote of £170000 for a firm to do it . but his advice(which cost in total about £5000) will save us in the region of will £100000, as the sod coerced us into doing it all outselves .Its been really satisfying however .We have finished the inside and outside now and whilst exhausting is really rewarding as my wife has never looked better, who needs a chemical peel when you are working with hydraulic lime.....fabulous

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