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    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 1st 2024 edited
     
    Bingo! On an old HDD I found ancient (2013) WUFI case studies, as discussed here from my memory, most recently in
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18146&page=1#Item_26 .

    I also found the WUFI 5.1.exe, which loaded and opened, where previously it had been time-limited to 6wks following the WUFI course. So, back in business! tho am sure to pay to legit-upgrade to current WUFI 6, which I think has changed a lot.

    In that thread, the construction discussed was:

    --------------

    Rafters (or studwork), plasterboard, skim and vapour-breatheable paint internally, which can be punctured at will for electrics etc; 12 ply sheathing (or 11 OSB3) gapfilling (polyurethane) glued and screwed/nailed externally, as air barrier, blown full of Warmcel insulation.

    EPS (or wood fibre) insulation; if 95 rafters then 150 EPS; if 145 rafters then 100 EPS, glued external to the sheathing EWI-style, with highly gappy glue application, to allow unimpeded water vapour passage. Board-edge joints filled with expanding foam, by long nozzle pushed in full depth, so filled full depth from inside outward. Bead-board EPS is by far least environmentally offensive, compared to any foam-board insulation such as PIR, and is sufficiently vapour-breatheable.

    Breather underslating felt, downslope battens, crosswise tiling battens, tiling.

    This design, fully breatheable without any vapour barrier (VCL), results from my one opportunity, years ago, to play with WUFI. I tried many use-cases, and for this type of construction, found it performed much better without any VCL. Note, there is a (vapour permeable) air barrier layer and a (vapour permeable) external wind barrier layer. I put this superior performance down to its maximisation of re-drying potential, unimpeded both outward and inward. With or without VCL, there is, at some times of the year, interstitial condensation in the outermost centimetre(s) of the EPS, but this is harmless as there's no embedded timber in that zone. Neither EPS or woodfibre mind such intermittent wetness, as long as fully re-dried soon enough, whether diunal (winter sunny day) or seasonal (after a long cold winter).

    --------------

    I find the case studies neatly arranged and hopefully useable to convince Bldg Insps. We shall see. Screenshots attached:

    WUFI 1 OSB shows the water content in the mid-sandwich OSB layer, with no VCL.
    WUFI 1 EPS shows ditto in the outboard EPS layer;
    WUFI 5 ditto ditto are with standard inboard VCL.
    WUFI 6 ditto ditto are with Intello variable VCL.

    Intello works better than standard VCL. But no VCL at all works much better than both!
    What do we make of that?

    Note that vertical scales differ, so need to look at the numbers, not just graph shape. Print em out - hard to compare otherwise.
      WUFI 1 EPS.jpg
      WUFI 6 EPS.jpg
      WUFI 1 OSB.jpg
      WUFI 6 OSB.jpg
      WUFI 5 EPS.jpg
      WUFI 5 OSB.jpg
  1.  
    Very interesting. For what it's worth, Ubakus largely agrees (I've no idea how to attach jpegs so cannot post here).

    The build-up as proposed here seems to have no issues. Adding cellulose between the rafters as per the other discussion does show some moisture issues - strangely in the EPS layer which was not what I was expecting.

    Changing the cellulose for wood fibre or rockwool between the rafters shows extra moisture beneath the plywood layer which is in line with what I've been told by our tech guys. I wonder if the sorption of the fibres, is at play here?

    Leaving the insulation between the rafters but changing the external EPS for woodfibre reduces the moisture to a small amount below the plywood. Again, in-line with what I've been told to expect.

    Whether we place OSB3 internally as a vapour check, or externally as an airtightness layer the important thing as ever is to have insulation decreasing in moisture resistance from inside to outside. If you change the EPS for a woodfibre sheathing with hydrophobic coating we can probably get away without using any plastic-based membranes in roof construction without fear of failures.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 2nd 2024
     
    More case studies for me to verify with my own eyes then!

    jpegs - when composing your post, below it is Attachments>Browse - click that, then in Explorer, which opens up, navigate to the folder where the jpeg is filed on your computer, select the jpeg and click Open. It attaches.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 2nd 2024
     
    Posted By: fostertomjpegs - when composing your post, below it is Attachments>Browse - click that, then in Explorer, which opens up, navigate to the folder where the jpeg is filed on your computer, select the jpeg and click Open. It attaches.
    Orl korrect, and if you do that and the picture doesn't appear then it's probably 'too big', so you need to reduce the resolution of the image. :devil:
  2.  
    I cannot see an attachments option. Where should I be looking?

    P.S. what does the 'big input' button do?
  3.  
    Ah ok, it just makes the viewport bigger. Insert slap forehead emoji here!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2024
     
    See the picture below which is what I see. Do you not see this?
      Screenshot_2024-07-03 WUFI case studies found .png
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2024
     
    Does that mean you've found the attachments button too? It's below the 'viewport'.
  4.  
    No, I just have an add comments button.

    No format, Emoji, or attachments :-(
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2024
     
    Something wrong then - but how come you know format, emojis, attachments should be there? Tho I'd love to be rid of emojis!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2024
     
    What device are you using? Using a browser on a regular computer, or even a tablet, should give you a sensible interface.
  5.  
    'Something wrong then - but how come you know format, emojis, attachments should be there? Tho I'd love to be rid of emojis!'

    Because djh kindly posted a picture!

    Using a laptop with Microsoft Edge.
  6.  
    Just had a look using Edge (I don't normally use it on my laptop, usually Chrome) and can confirm that there are format options but no options for Emoji, or attachments.

    How strange.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2024 edited
     
    Grr. I'm in the grip of a zealot Bldg Regs plan checker - local Building Control has subcontracted application plan checking to some dept, agency or privatised service in far-away Norfolk who are doing it by the book in exquisite detail.

    Just received this:

    "C2 A condensation risk analysis is required for the wall construction, The WUFI calculations
    show the water content but not the risk of condensation arising which may necessitate a
    vapour control layer.

    A ventilated drained cavity is required to separate the cladding from the
    insulation or sheathing, please refer to paragraph 5.17 of AD C."

    The WUFI calcs I presented are the pics at the top of this thread, and the wall construction is as described there.

    Para 1: AFAIK WUFI assesses 'condensation risk' by charting the water content at various points through the 'sandwich', and through the year - not by green or red traffic lights for condensation risk. Though the obsolete (but still enshrined in Bldg Regs) Glaser method may indicate zero condensation risk, we know that's based on simplistic assumptions. In fact there's always some water content aka condensation - then it's a matter of judgement as to whether a problem or not. Not in this case, especially the variant that has no VCL at all.

    Am I wrong?

    Para 2: Standard render on EPS in EWI systems contravene 5.17 of AD C, which anyway is not a requirement just a deemed-to-satisfy. But unfortunately that's EWI on masonry, not on timber framed inner.

    So am I stuffed?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2024
     
    Various points in no particular order.

    (1) Your first post in the thread isn't very clear, at least to me. It seems to be talking about roofs but the building inspector is talking about walls? Your post doesn't seem to mention what the outer part of the wall looks like. Is there cladding or render or what? Is there a drainage plane and vented cavity? Is the render breathable?

    (2) the building inspector is clearly wrong quoting 5.17. It doesn't 'require' anything. It simply states one case where a construction is 'deemed to satisfy'. As you say. But what is 'EWI on masonry'? 5.17 clearly isn't and from what I can make out yours isn't either?

    (3) C2 doesn't require an absence of condensation as the BI seems to claim but instead requires "The walls ... adequately protect ... from harmful effects caused by: ... (c) interstitial and surface condensation". So as you say, what is required is that any condensation that does form dries out before it does any damage.

    (4) I don't think you're stuffed. You need to go back with a reasoned argument, or go to his boss (that's what I did with mine) or change your BI firm.

    Norfolk has a number of PH BTW, so they're not all ignorant, inbred yokels. My building inspector was in Norfolk and our walls are (breathable) render directly on rottable organic material. :bigsmile: I expect there's condensation in there quite often.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2024
     
    Thanks Dave, v helpful. DON'T PANIC!
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