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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorwholaa
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2024
     
    Hi all,

    I have noticed there is a seeming discrepancy between MVHR efficiency listed on the passive house portal and what is described on manufacture specifications. For example, the Zehnder Q600 is regarded as high end and is passive approved and listed as having 87% heat recovery efficiency. The Vent-Axia Sentinels which are not passive approved are listed as 91% efficient. Has anyone explored this topic in detail?
  1.  
    Has anyone explored this topic in detail?
    No
    But is the seeming discrepancy just a matter of one not paying for the accreditation for what ever reason (e.g. cost over benefit)
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2024
     
    I did at the time I built but don't remember the details now. The basic rule is simple though: trust the PH data, don't trust manufacturers. It's all to do with how things are measured and exactly what is measured. It's not a question of payment for the independent verification; it's different measurement regimes. For example I do remember that PH measures insulation and airtightness as well as the heat exchanger.

    There's an article at https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/energy-efficiency-passivhaus-mvhr-elrond-burrell that covers some of the detail.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2024 edited
     
    Posted By: wholaaHas anyone explored this topic in detail?

    Yes. The standard calculation is based on the temperatures of the supply and extract ducts, compared to the outside air temperature. The heat recover rate is:
    supply temperature - intake temperature / extract temperature - intake temperature

    Which would be fine if MVHR units were perfectly insulated and perfectly sealed. In reality, some heat will pass through its insulation, and some of the air will leak past or through the heat exchanger & other components.

    For example, if warm air from the room leaks past the heat exchanger and mixes directly with the supply air, the supply air temperature will be warmer than it would otherwise be - and the bigger the leak, the higher the heat recovery rate appears. So poorly made units score higher - potentially much higher - than they perform in reality.

    To avoid that stupidity, Passivhaus use a different formula that uses the exhaust air temperature instead of the intake temperature (and adds some additional factors) to mirror reality as closely as possible.

    Another complication is that the heat recover rate doesn't take into account the electricity used - a unit may have highly efficient fans that use very little electricity, or cheap and inefficient ones that burn through far more.

    Consequently, when comparing MVHR units in the Passivhaus database, use the Efficiency Ratio instead. That takes into account electricity consumption and the heat recovery. It's why it appears first in their database.

    https://database.passivehouse.com/en/components/list/ventilation_small - if a company hasn't put their units forward for assessment, be wary.
    • CommentAuthorwholaa
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2024
     
    Thanks for the feedback. From what I understand, MVHR efficiency makes a huge difference in heating savings in the long run. It seems a bit unfair that home energy ratings use the manufacturer's efficacy values, which overstate efficiency. But maybe this changes in the future.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2024
     
    What do you mean by "home energy ratings"?

    If you're referring to EPCs then IMHO they are absolute junk, not worth the paper they are printed on (or the electrons they are displayed with).
    • CommentAuthorwholaa
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2024
     
    In my case it is the Irish BER rating but I agree, junk, but it does impact house price. Not a worry for me right now though.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2024
     
    Epcā€™s like Smart Meters are the result of the UKs love of adhering to suggestions from the the EU, we didnā€™t have to do it but it seems we love a bit of pointless beaurocracy and complication in life. In the residential sector it would have been better to have mandated that sellers had to provide details of actual energy use in the previous 5 years and for the valuation survey to have noted recommended improvements to the energy efficincy of the home.

    As a landlord itā€™s just a pointless exercise that tells prospective tenants very little and leaves me open to extra expense when properties are downgraded because the assessment procedure / fuel prices have changed. Mine are all Cā€™s , but 4 when built were Bā€™s. 4 are in an 1870ā€™s terrace and thereā€™s no realistic way of improving them without incurring huge rent increases to cover the cost, the rent rises being way higher than any possible savings in the energy bills.

    Cynically the new government have promised that new standards will need meeting by 2030, but no details as to what they will be. The timeline makes the whole exercise pointless, very few will meet a standard that could be dumped in an instant if they lose the ā€˜29 election. Of course they know that bringing in tighter standards earlier will result in landlords selling up , creating evermore problems for councils, hence the weasel worded policies.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2024 edited
     
    Posted By: ArtiglioEpcā€™s like Smart Meters are the result of the UKs love of adhering to suggestions from the the EU, we didnā€™t have to do it...
    The UK did have to do it, but member states designed their own implementation, so many of the UK problems are thanks to HM Gov. For example, in many other countries accessors need a construction-related degree to be accepted on a training course. In the UK, anyone can take an online course.

    In France, anyone with an inaccurate EPC can claim damages from the assessor. It would be interesting to see that introduced to the UK!

    Posted By: Artigliobringing in tighter standards earlier will result in landlords selling up , creating evermore problems for councils...
    And that's what's happening in France already. Landlords are selling up, at a discounted prices due to the poor EPC ratings, while others are starting to buy them up and renovate them.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2024
     
    Artiglio, how would you like to see the private rented sector thoroughly uprated?
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2024
     
    FT - if youā€™re talking solely in terms of energy efficiency i canā€™t see a practical way forward.The private rented sector is a convenient whipping boy to direct attention away from the whole housing fiasco. I rather expect that politicians would quite happily see it dwindle to next to nothing and will use legislation in terms of standards and taxation to continually squeeze it , instead thereā€™ll be incentives for large funds to enter into ā€œbuild to rentā€ though theyā€™ll not want the bottom end of the market unless subsidised to do so. Thisā€™ll mean that rented stock will be new and theoretically well managed.
    In my area a local housing association has a ā€œprofit for purposeā€ arm , which has built 2 bed semis for rent, but these are 1420 a month in an area where local housing allowance 750 a month. My rents average under this ( i have long term tenants i want to look after, but rents are on an upward trajectory purely from taxation , legislation and the cost of goods and services) Section 24mis a particularly nasty piece of taxation, which with the freezing ot tax thresholds means iā€™m taxed on turnover to a degree, my tenants each pay 50 a month extra just to cover this, as its a tax on turnover i need to charge enough extra to have enough after normal tax to pay the extra.
    I see the current date for new standards as a way of not having more landlords give up and leave the sector before the next election, then if labour win again and thereā€™s sufficient slack in the system theyā€™ll say we told you it was coming and hammer the sector. But as things stand few landlords are going to spend the sums required to meet a standard that could change in a couple of years, when most tenants are unlikely to ne able to meet the rents required to recoup the expenditure over say 5-10 years.
    My 1870ā€™s mid terrace converted to 4 flats is never going to be effectively heated by heat pumps, space just isā€™nt avaialble for the hardware, as a large family home it would be possible but at very considerable expense.

    My 2004 built block of small 2 bed flats again would be problematic to convert to heat pumps, not so much in attaining the insulation levels required but again in terms of the space needed.

    But looked at from another angle the prs offers a large number of properties that could be encpuraged to meet new standards at little immediate cost to the exchequer, just reduce eventual capital gains on properties that meet standards and stay in the rented sector for another 10 years. It would present an opportunity for a proper retrofit industry to form and mature , not present opportunity for the cowboys to ride over the horizon to mop up grants and subsidies and be working with customers who are a bit more building savvyand not let contractors rip them off.

    None of this helps my tenants who are all low earning workers ( about a 3rd of them get help via tax credits), the newer flats , cost the more energy conscious tenants next to nothing to live in at sensible temperatures, current standing charges make up an absurd percentage of their bills. None will benefit finacially if and when iā€™m forced to improve the properties further either through legislation , finagling of the assessment method or energy prices.

    All a bit disjointed for which i apologise, but the private rented sector is only a small issue in comparison to owner occupied housing. It was notable during the election how so little was said about what householders will be expected to do going forward, the effective dishonesty of politicians of all hues is despicable if they truly intend to meet net zero by 2050.
    And thats without considering the future of transport and how current revenues from fuel duty are to be replaced in an electric world and how that skews the cost of electric motoring.
    Personally i just donā€™t see that the nation has sufficent financial wherewithal to make the changes needed. And all to be the global poster boy of global warming, for me itā€™s all utter lunacy.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2024
     
    Futher to the above, building the 1.5 million homes as promised is going to achieve next to nothing if migration into the UK continues at the rate of the last 2 years, 80% of homes built would be needed by those arriving.

    The building safety changes after Grenfell is making leasehold flats unaffordable for many leaseholders.

    People tired of having no real security in rented property due to landlords selling is pushing people into part rent part buy schemes , these are really only really suitable for those who can rely on increasing income and can afford to staircase to eventual full ownership, others sucked into such schemes will have used what savings they have for the deposit and if unable to buy out the rented portion will effectively be stuck there forever liable for all the costsmin maintenance etc, itā€™ll ne another scandal in around 15 years.
    If and when there is a significant fall in house prices itā€™ll get very messy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2024
     
    That's a great, detailed account, which certainly isn't evident from the outside. I will hope to let it go round in my mind, see what comes out.
  2.  
    Just in relation to the heat pumps for the flats, Kensa do a ā€œshoeboxā€ heat pump that fits inside a kitchen cupboard
    Although you might also need to make space for an unvented hot water cylinder, if they donā€™t have them already (Iā€™m guessing combi boilers?)
    Then you could have a communal borehole in the grounds.
    I believe the drilling process is very messy - I have never done it.
  3.  
    Posted By: Dominic CooneyThen you could have a communal borehole in the grounds.
    I believe the drilling process is very messy - I have never done it.

    Bin there - dun that

    The drilling process is messy and takes up quite a bit of space for the drilling kit although not as much space/disturbance as putting in slinky pipework. Usually the biggest deterrent to borehole GSHP is the cost.

    Posted By: ArtiglioIf and when there is a significant fall in house prices itā€™ll get very messy.

    IMO if the housing shortage is solved to the point where there is no shortage then it will be more than messy. The housing market has risen for as long as I can remember driven by the shortage which IMO is driven by the planning permission restraints. If the restraints and therefore the shortages are resolved then anyone with a mortgage will sink into negative equity making their ability to sell impossible.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2024
     
    DC, iā€™ve decided i wonā€™t be moving away from combis until iā€™m forced to do so, gfch is well known and understood i can get just about anything fixed or a boiler replaced within 4 days of a tenant telling me thereā€™s an issue. Iā€™d like the ashp market to be the same by the time i have to change.
    Communal heating sounds good, but brings the issues of Heat Interface Units and my having to bill the tenants for their use, a whole new headache , iā€™d expect I wouldnā€™t have the protections in lawa the utility providers have in the event of non payment ,plus althpugh both blocks have 3 phase supplies iā€™ve no doubt theyā€™d be considered insufficient if the buildings became all electric.

    I looked into borehole ashp at my current home, it was 4 years ago, the budget cost was 50k plus 12k for a 3 phase supply, (i put the money in acres of woodfibre iwi instead), additionally my area is on chalk and itā€™s been suggested itā€™s not the best for gshp ( but once i got as far as cost i didā€™nt look any further)

    But the basic problem is am i going to put that much money into buildings in a country where political whim changes so frequently , iā€™d need at least 10 uears of certainty to even consider it and being 60 now if that certainty isnā€™t there in 5 years it wonā€™t happen.

    PIH all our housing issues in the UK stem from two things , immigration and housebuilding. Theres never been a balance between the two and far too much spin and avoidance of the truth on the former. Immigration theoretically has lots of upside , but no one wants to talk of the downsides and quite where the money comes from to provide the services and infrastructure to support such a fast increasing population.
    My personal opinion is that successive governments have used migration to avoid having to deal with the nations unwillingness to work, we seem to be quite happy to park people on benefits rather than address their attitudes and issues, excess weight and lack of fitness alone will break the nhs in particular and the nation as awhole if it continues on the current path.
    Of course opinions vary massively, usually on the basis of what people see in their own areas, in my part of east kent , whats seen is not too positive for them especially those on lower incomes, itā€™s not surprising that many choose a life on benefits and daytime telly/social media.

    The story this morning regarding suggestions that the local goverpension schemes COULD have the rules changed to have them invest in the UK is potentially another desperate throw of the financial dice. Effectively pension cash guaranteed by the public purse used as funding for projects deemed to be worthy by government.
    I can see it being used for a huge social housing programme, quite how you would make housing funded by a pension scheme guaranteed by the gov get a sufficient return from social housing in which the existing stock has around 2/3rds of the rent paid by the government, iā€™ve no idea. Itā€™d all be far too cosy , if the investment goes wrong whoā€™s responsible for any losses other than the taxpayer? Typical public sector thereā€™d be no responsibility or downside for those involved.

    As PIH says far too many need house prices to remain pretty stable, iā€™d guess that even a 10% drop for a few years would wreak havoc, especially if this was alongside a loss of confidence in the UK by the money markets.

    Apologies for taking this all so far from energy efficiency , but iā€™d say that for 75% of owner occupiers itā€™ll ne totally unaffordable in the event of relatively small drops in house prices.

    Last but not least the country is being propped up to no small degree by the wealth of the older middle classes, they can afford to ā€œbank of mum and dadā€ their offspring and cover their care costs in their later years. The nation hits another finacial buffer once thatā€™s depleted, but thereā€™s no long term thinking in government of any hue.
  4.  
    With the Kensa shoebox they have 1 in each flat, so each flat would pay their own electric bill for their usage. itā€™s just the ground loops that are communal, so perhaps no different in legal terms than to shared driveways or parking areas.
    I can see why you would keep the combi boilers up until you are forced to switch. It was just a comment on space (then I remembered the unvented tank as well)
  5.  
    They do a 3kW version, so for 4 x flats you might not need 3-phase either.
    But probably would for 4 x 6kW models. Depends on insulation levels of the flats.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2024
     
    DC - the problem that iā€™d face with 3kw models ,( iā€™d be confident of being able to meet the insulation and airtightness, but if it mean having to go for underfloor heating the costs for achieving it all would be considerable, iā€™d effectively be stripping the flats out and refitting them from a bare shell, i very much doubt itā€™d ever make financial sense) is the way tenants live and behave , theyā€™d not be happy with 3kw and iā€™d have electric radiators and fan heaters plugged in. Boreholes would be the only option if it were to be ground source, and even that may be an issue if all the properties in the street went the same way ( buildings are older and converted for the most part, my block is the newest bar one in the street being built in 2004 as an infill)
    Iā€™ve hungarian tenants that live at 26 degrees, only as a result of endless badgering have i got them ventilating and not turning the fan off in the bathroom that iā€™ve set to extract on low level pretty much continuously, 5 people in a small 2 bed flat, tenant instigated overcrowding so not my fault ( tenancy agreement clearly states its 3 people max) too expensive and time consuming to evict and section 21 would be my only route, no judge would grant possession for breach of tenancy on overcrowding). I donā€™t like working in their flat each breath means youā€™re inhaling a tablespoon of sweat. They are moving to the midlands later this year, a whole new start in an area alien to them , but its the only way theyā€™ll ever be able to buy ( renting to start with)I hope it works out for them, nice people, been my tenants for 10 years , their rent is Ā£75 a month below any advertised 2 bed let alone one thatā€™s in good nick and epc C. They need at least a 3 bed ( its mum, dad, grandmother, and 2 daughters 14 and 6) no way they can afford to rent that in my area.

    The transition away from gas for the nation as a whole is going to be way more problematic than our leaders tell people. Expectations on performance and the cost of insulating older homes properly is going to impoverish way too many people and if mortgage lenders are required to have a target average across their lending books itā€™ll kill huge swathes of the market in no time.

    I really donā€™t see net zero being met by 2050, 2100 maybe but to achieve it weā€™d need the holy grail of very cheap energy and a vibrant economy that the nation in surplus year on year. Obviously iā€™ll never know if it happens, iā€™ll only see the mess thatā€™s made of everything before some sensible lomg term planning is seen as the only way forward.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2024 edited
     
    Posted By: ArtiglioBoreholes would be the only option if it were to be ground source, and even that may be an issue if all the properties in the street went the same way
    It may be easier and lower cost if all the properties went the same way, at the same time, using shared boreholes. Like this pilot scheme : https://heyzine.com/flip-book/a7d411ca55.html - although that's in Cornwall where they've the added benefit of hotter geothermal heat than much of the country. There's some interesting ideas on how it may be implemented towards the back of the brochure.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2024
     
    Thanks for that had a quick through, like the idea of there not being a primary circulating pump and that distribution round the system was from the heat pumps in the home. But the cost was around 28k per home ( though youā€™d hope if rolled out this would drop) the flats iā€™m talking about are only worth about Ā£175, the 28k plus that required to improve the insulation levels, make it a no go, been a while since i last asked a tenant but their gas bill was less than the average saving quoted to start with. ( just checked the epc done last year which estimates the average use in the flat to cost Ā£701 a year for heating ,hot water and lighting, which chimes with the discussion i had with the tenant and their gas and electric costs)
    Even if i could come up with the money without additional borrowing ( I couldnā€™t) thereā€™s no way the savings would recoup the capital outlay in any sensible timescale , and finacially the tenants would be worse off, borrowing the money to do it (a very optimistic 35k, which assumes some reduction in the communal heating network costs) the interest alone in year 1is going to be several times any saving , so the overall cost just increases.
    In the street my blocks in , unless the boreholes are under the road ( very unlikely given the services already there) theyā€™d need to go in back gardens / parking areas, how would that work in regard of the legalities and agreements? Apologies if thats covered in the brochure and i skimmed over it.
    Total off the cuff numbers, say there are 10 million pre 1950 homes that need gshp and insulation works average of 35k each ( again optimistic) , thatā€™s 350 billion that needs to be found. For those alone, probably way more. In what is effectively a consumer society even if it is available by 2050 itā€™ll syphon into the energy industry that the rest of the economy would tank.
    As a nation our housing stock was built on average way too long before energy efficiency was ever even a consideration.
    Thereā€™s a long way to go.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2024 edited
     
    Posted By: ArtiglioBut the cost was around 28k per home
    However no up-front cost at all for the customers, in this particular case*. Instead, for domestic customers, there's a standing charge of Ā£250 per year, and no need to pay a gas standing charge. The average customer saved Ā£628 per year on their heating bills. They're aiming for a 50% cut in heating costs, and a 70% cut in CO2.

    The feedback from the householders is good - you can view their videos online:
    https://www.kensautilities.com/case-study-videos/

    Posted By: Artigliounless the boreholes are under the road
    They were in this case.

    *However, in the FAQs for new schemes (aimed at housing associations and the like) they talk about a different funding arrangement - they Kensa (just realised that it's the same crew that Dominic mentioned above) - fund the ground array & connections to the home, and the 'customers' pay for the heat pump and radiators, which they suggest would cost less than an equivalent ASHP installation. I guess that that would be partly offset by grants though. FAQs:
    https://www.kensautilities.com/faq/

    With economies of scale, hopefully the costs would reduce further.

    From the other direction, the cost of gas will undoubtedly rise as people leave gas and move to heat pumps, leaving fewer people to carry the cost of the gas infrastructure. France is way ahead of the UK on installing heat pumps, so that's already an issue and they're increasing the gas price this year because of it, for the first time.
  6.  
    Posted By: ArtiglioIā€™ve hungarian tenants that live at 26 degrees, only as a result of endless badgering have i got them ventilating and not turning the fan off in the bathroom that iā€™ve set to extract on low level pretty much continuously, 5 people in a small 2 bed flat, tenant instigated overcrowding so not my fault

    Yes, I've had tenants like that.
    Multi generational living is (was) much more common here than in the UK. The habit of living at 26 deg. in the winter and the dressing in a vest and shorts (or less in the case of one tenant) comes from the social housing of panel flats (prefabricated high rise flats) that had district heating that was uncontrollable in an individual flat and charged at a flat rate without any metering. The heating system was top down so the upper floors overheated to get the lower ones up to temp.. I've seen top floors with the windows open to reduce the temp to bearable when the outside temp was -12. All done in the communist era of unlimited Russian gas
    These legacy systems are still in place today but now modified with controls and metering.
  7.  
    I think I would die at 26 degrees! Maybe Iā€™m just used to living in a cold farmhouse, when I go in the barn itā€™s well cosy at 20 degrees.

    If I recall correctly it cost about Ā£24,000 for the whole system in there:

    7/8kW Kensa Evo ground source heat pump (this is a bigger and more expensive model than the shoebox one)
    2 x 50m trenches in the field with slinky pipes, manifold, pipe insulation where needed
    Digger hire (dug trenches myself)
    Unvented Hot Water cylinder
    Buffer tank
    All plumbing work and installation

    But yes we put under floor heating pipes in (we did in the last 2 places as well)
    Our next dilemma is whether to get the floors up in the farmhouse when we switch over to another GSHP or just go for larger radiators. We could insulate the floors as well then!
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2024 edited
     
    Mike 1- it doesnā€™t matter where the money comes from it has to be recouped somehow and if not directly from all those using such schemes then itā€™s either through higher bills somewhere or via the taxpayer, itā€™s one of my biggest gripes with such promotional material, how many of the participants would have gone ahead if they were paying the costs and how would the attitudes of those doing so alter, when they realise that even for the 28k stated theyā€™d only need to have it invested at 2.5% after tax to beat the savings on the fuel bills and if borrowed the savings would never pay off the capital sum unless we have another low interest rate environment. Yes i agree this will be no doubt offset by energy prices as they rise , but unless this is done punitively it wonā€™t help.
    The UK will pauper itself if it doesnā€™t take a more sensible approach to the transition over a much longer period. Weā€™re already paying for the mistakes or others and socialising energy debt via the huge increases in standing charges, which is just a case of smoke and mirrors to hide the costs of the mistakes made in energy policy.

    PIH - thanks for that insight, lifestyles from other nations obviously vary and may well be at odds with how homes in the uk have been built and designed to be used, throws a different light on the issues some landlords social/private sector have in managing their stock. It also suggests that the ā€œitā€™s always the landlords faultā€ stance by some is hardly reasonable in such instances.

    DC- it feels unhealthy in the flat, I couldnā€™t live like it, cramped and terribly humid , if i have work to do in there , i ask when everyone will be out, go in open windows then do the emergency light test, empty the bins, meter read anything to give it 10 mins to air a bit. Been good tenants for 10 years but iā€™m not sorry to see them go, not looking forward to the tidying up and redecoration before putting it back on market, though iā€™ll ne able to bring rents up to local market price.

    My current place, could only have been done with boreholes iā€™ve no land for slinkys, these would have bumped the cost up, plus being listed the company i approached effectively refused to allow for any real insulation so they ended up with a 25kwh system design. Council didknt allow insulation saying it wasnā€™t in their conservation policy, refused to discuss why that policy had not been updated since thecouncil had voted to declare a climate emergency and place the climate at the centre of all they do. Nothing more than greenwash bs. So iā€™ve done my own thing.
    Iā€™ve gone for gas and radiators, having insulated to practical levels , double glazed or secondary glazed, mvhr. Iā€™m keeping records of gas use , it wonā€™t be till the coming winter that the place will be sufficiently complete to say that thereā€™ll be no further efficiency gains. With no heating on, the house stays a pretty constant 5 degrees over external temps, down to 5 degrees external its comfortable with 45 degree flow from boiler , below that it needs 55 degrees. Thereā€™s a 10mm2 cable run to the utility room for an eventual change to ASHP which iā€™m expecting would need to be around 10kwh, but iā€™ll have a better idea once i get some data.
  8.  
    the single biggest energy subsidy in UK history was the Ā£62bn Gov spent to subsidise the cost of gas when bills skyrocketed in 2022-23

    https://obr.uk/box/the-cost-of-the-governments-energy-support-policies/

    We will be repaying the public debt on that year's heating bill for several decades to come. Most of the Ā£62bns ended up in/directly in the pockets of gas exporting countries, IE Russia and the middle east.

    Given the geopolitical situation, it's an even chance of that happening a few more times in coming years.

    Spending that kind of money on getting the UK off gas ASAP, seems like a better use of Ā£ to me, than bailing out people with GCH every time there's a war.

    Most flats could have air-air heatpumps for under Ā£10k.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2024
     
    That subsidy was largely the result of poor energy policy , not making use of whatā€™s available to us , in favour of offshoring fossil fuel exploitation. Weā€™ve also not built sufficient generating capacity that didnā€™t use gas, there was a post possibly on here maybe elsewhere that from my recollection discussed the disconnect between what suppliers had to supply as against what they generate.
    My personal opinion is that the nations headlong pursuit of net zero by the easiest option from the bean counters point of view will be a burden for many years. Bailing out those that chose to use the new entrants to the supply market and who failed ( again largely because they were set up under a framework that put so called competition before any sort of stability in the companies) and now weā€™re also subsidising those that canā€™t/ wonā€™t pay their bills.

    Had the UK built on its nuclear industry rather than abandoning it, and put all the cash into new reactors weā€™d be in a much better position, but hindsight is a wonderfull thing.

    Air 2 Air for 10k may be doable but that wonā€™t cover the cost of the insulation and airtightness work required to make the A2A effective. No doubt overtime the taxpayer will cover the cost of upgrading the social housing stock, which will be done at absurd cost given the public sectors inability to seek value for money. The average owner occupier is just not going to be able to meet the bills the policies are likely to lead to. As a landlord even 10k a flat puts a huge hole in any savings i have and iā€™d want that back plus the interest lost in 7 years, so a very rough Ā£40 a week increase in each tenants rent for that period , which is a 20% plus rent increase for my tenants , for a heating system theyā€™ll not like and wonā€™t perform the way they think it should.
    I got all my flats upto a C last year to lock in that rating until 2033 and so hopefully be ahead of any daft rules government brings in, theyā€™ve already started playing games by saying the ( yet to be announced) minimum energy efficiency standards wonā€™t apply till after the next election, who in their right mind is going to do anything that could be u turned by the next gov is it changes again? 2033 gives me some breathing space , but iā€™ll be 68 by then and probably have little interest in doing the work and just sell up instead. The initial standards were linked to the Green Deal by law when green deal failed the MEES was unenforceable, so more legislation required. We had the sustainable homes standard, but that was abandoned, when will there be any certainty and proper planning and implementation that people can plan around.
    All the suggestions, could beā€™s, can kicking and misdirection wonā€™t solve anything.
  9.  
    There is no stable UK gas supply any more, it's been used up now and so UK is dependent now on international gas markets. Not policy, just geology.

    Nothing against nuclear as part of the mix, but at Ā£40bn for the latest 3.6GW station and 17 years construction, we won't be buying many more soon. If not nuclear, we'll need long duration storage or CCS, both are also expensive, compared to insulating the worst flats.

    An EPC-C flat is perfect for an air-air heatpump, doesn't 'need' more insulation. 7 kW multi split with four indoor units, Ā£2-3k for parts, plus fitting, sorted. Does cooling too
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2024
     
    Thanks for that , iā€™ll see how things move on in the course of this parliament and bear air to air in mind.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2024
     
    WIA , checked out your suggestion, i have another flat, excouncil also a C, but has an old gas back boiler ( but was fitted when councils did things properly and it has weather comp which for the tenant that used it made a big difference to bills) also has a dhw tank and immersion. Nearly 40 years old so ripe for replacement though shows no sign of giving up. When the current tenant leaves itā€™d be an opportunity to change things, itā€™d be cheaper than the rearranging needed to accomodate a modern boiler, save space with getting rid of rads and with some iwi on an external wall with no cavity ( so no cwi) might get it to nearly a B. Are such units available that have a dhw ability, the ones iā€™ve looked at so far seem to be solely for space heating/cooling.
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