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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorsluggy
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2024
     
    Hello I need to replace a felt flat roof on a large dormer window. I'd like to use a sustainable material but none of the options seem very environmentally friendly or recyclable. Does anyone have any advice on the greenest option? I like the idea of a metal roof such as standing seam galvanised steel (I like the look of this and could be recycleable?) but I am not sure that would work on a flat roof.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2024
     
    Standing seam has a minimum angle of a few degrees. The exact number depends on the product, so you need to check the data sheets carefully. I wouldn't use steel because rust :bigsmile: Ours is aluminium. For our flat roofs I chose EPDM based on its good performance and its sustainability credentials (first hit I just found https://cpduk.co.uk/news/epdm-sustainability-and-the-environment )
  1.  
    Over here standing seam roofs are galvanised steel as are gutters and downpipes and last typically over 30 years but then we are further away from the sea.

    Down side of such roofs is that they can be noisy with heavy rain or hail.

    Over here you can also get profiled sheet that avoids the work of doing the standing seams. They are coated in various colours and come in various lengths e.g. 4M long comes out at 4 GBP / m2 + vat. Guarantees vary from 30 to 50 years depending upon the manufacturer.
    Have a look at
    https://ocsikershop.hu/termek/t20-trapezlemez-teglavoros-ral-8004/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8OOSiuDEhwMVH6SDBx3nxw8CEAQYBSABEgKdYPD_BwE
    Clicking the box under Hosszúság méret (cm) * gives the available lengths you can order, the advantage being you can avoid horizontal seams.
    All Hungarian web site but I'm sure you will get the idea.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2024
     
    You can get trapezoidal roof sheets here as well in various materials. You can also get them pre-attached to insulation. But they all need a pitched roof, typically steeper than standing seam.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2024
     
    Lead is fully recyclable, long lasting, cheaper in the long run if done properly.
  2.  
    Posted By: djhYou can get trapezoidal roof sheets here as well in various materials. You can also get them pre-attached to insulation. But they all need a pitched roof, typically steeper than standing seam.

    Correct they need about 4 deg. whereas a standing seam can cope with 1.5 deg. Much may depend upon what the existing felt roof has.

    Posted By: tonyLead is fully recyclable, long lasting, cheaper in the long run if done properly.

    30 to 50 years for a 'tin' roof will do me and much less nickable than a lead roof.
    • CommentAuthorsluggy
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2024
     
    Thanks for all your helpful comments. It’s the first time I have ever posted on this forum though I have been following it for quite a while and really appreciate how many people with lots of experience are offering free advice ?
    I like the idea of a tin roof but I will have to check what the fall is on my roof to see if it is feasible. A lead roof would be lovely but I fear it would be beyond my budget. I plan to add insulation at the same time as replacing the roof so want also to use a sustainable insulation product so would welcome any suggestions. I have heard that EDPM is the most sustainable of the plasticy roofing types although I am somewhat sceptical and suspicious that might be ‘greenwash’ but that might have to be my best option if a tin roof is not possible.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2024
     
    If you're thinking of insulation then things can get quite complicated because of the mess that is Building Regs. Check whether you need ventilation under the roof surface for whatever you choose. (if so there's no point in bonded insulation, for example). Our EPDM is on a ply substrate with a 50 mm ventilated gap underneath and insulation below the gap.
  3.  
    Re insulation, if you are adding insulation then you will probably be raising the roof a bit to accommodate the extra thickness so there would be an opportunity to adjust the angle to account for your chosen roofing material.

    For insulation material I would go for fluffy stuff, (I would use either glass or rock wool) Either are easier to fit between timbers than board type and I have heard of the board type (EPS, XPS etc.) degrading and shrinking over time due to the heat that can be found under the roof tiles or sheets. E.g EPS softens at 70 deg. which could be reached under a roof covering depending upon orientation etc. I have seen a roofing membrane totally destroyed after 12 years under a 'tin' roof. All that was left was the strengthening mesh incorporated in the membrane and that fell apart on touching. (Note that product is no longer on the market).

    BTW you can get tiles that go down to a 5 deg. slope.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2024
     
    Another contender with good co-credentials is mastic asphalt. It's made from natural materials, requires low maintenance, deadens sound, has a very long service life and is 100% recyclable.

    Preferably top with solar-reflective paint (or, even better, a green roof - though maybe not on a dormer).
  4.  
    It's been many years since I looked at this, but to address the original point, of the flat roof membranes available on the market, TPO (thermoplastic PolyOlefin) material is generally considered a more benign option than some of the other single ply options out there. Mainly due to the plasticizers and stabilizers used in manufacture.

    After some searching online, I found this paper which quickly jumps into some complicated chemistry around alternatives (titanium dioxide coated bacterially derived nano-particles, anyone?!).

    It is well worth a read though as the final section also considers some of the things mentioned on here such as metal sheet, pointing out that the coatings and paints on the metal can also be an environmental hazard.

    https://bcgc.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/ecoblock-final-report_wrefs_final_2018.pdf
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2024
     
    Posted By: Doubting_Thomasthe coatings and paints on the metal can also be an environmental hazard
    Yes, our roof is "mill finish" aluminium, which means no coatings or paints etc. I think the same may be true for zinc roofs.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2024
     
    This pic shows some of my concerns about single ply membranes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9gpn3ujghnr38jy1lpnag/single-ply-membrane?rlkey=tp1838uj5tahzo9h58vz611kx&dl=0

    As I see it this one though thin and not great quality has suffered from UV induced shrinkage, and thermal movement problems. It seems to have been stuck down and glued on the skimpy overlap which has come undone after an estimated ten years.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2024 edited
     
    I can't see the picture. dropbox says something about needing a file extension and then tries to XSS to google and tries to get me to log in to my non-existent google account. Can you post it somewhere public?

    Also what type of 'single ply membrane' is it? There's a lot of difference between the various types. Your description makes it sound like a poor quality product that was poorly installed, so not terribly relevant except as a warning.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 2nd 2024
     
  5.  
    still not working
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2024
     
    I can’t post pics, sorry
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2024
     
  6.  
    Need to sign in to google drive to view !!!
  7.  
    I think you need to make it shareable with anyone with the link
    Or summat like that
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2024
     
    Or use a site like https://postimages.org/ or one of the many others available.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2024 edited
     
    Re Tony's pic: It can be download, but not viewed, without either a dropbox or google account. But it's a very tiresome experience. That is a terrible install with very narrow strips and tiny welding overlaps. Do we know how old it is? Most membrane installs are much better than that with much wider strips and thus fewer, wider welds. I have a 10-yr old install and it appears to be performing well. Allegedly it should last 30 years.

    On the actual question: the single-ply membranes are obviously plastics but they make a very light roof covering so not much material is used in comparison to many other coverings ( bituminous felt, fibreglass, mastic asphalt, concrete). I don;t actually know how the LCAs compare.

    EPDM is much less harmful than PVC from a manufacturing point of view. Also EPDM is recyclable into new roofing EPDM, at least according to this CPD: https://cpduk.co.uk/news/epdm-sustainability-and-the-environment and the US ERA has been doing it since working out the process in 2006. Apparently old tyres are now going into EPDM manufacture too. I don't know how much this is actually happening in the real world. (There is some vagueness in those articles about actually recycling into the same material. It is implied but not stated, which may mean it's actually only being downcycled...)

    Mind you it seems the PVC people make the same claims: https://www.buildingenclosureonline.com/articles/91215-new-white-paper-on-recycling-pvc-roof-membranes (except in that article they say "PVC roofing is the only commercial roofing material that is being recycled, at the end of decades of service life, into the feedstock to make new roofing membranes")

    I tried to get EPDM for my extension roof in 2014 but the roofing company was only certified for and experienced with Sarnafil (PVC) so I had to get a PVC roof instead (boo). For domestic projects recycling may be hard to come by - it was impossible for me to do it with my old PVC windows, despite there being a thriving PVC-window recycling system because one house-worth is too small for anyone to be bothered with. The same could be true for domestic-sized roof membranes. Hopefully regs will deal with this sort of problem in due course.

    So all that said I'm not at all sure what the 'greenest' flat roofing options are. There are several possible measures (energy, manufacturing pollution, manufacturing emissions, in-use pollution, recyclability, longevity, assembly mass, and thus footprint).
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 18th 2024
     
    Posted By: wookeyI tired to get EPDM for my extension roof in 2014 but the roofing company was only certified or and experienced
    FWIW we used Eastern Foundry Lead for both our EPDM and aluminium roofs. They did a good job, I believe. They reckon metals should last 100+ years, and EPDM from 50 to 125 years.
    • CommentAuthorsgt_woulds
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2024
     
    Regarding EPDM, can anyone recommend a reflective paint that is compatible?

    We have a 32m2 dormer flat roof that I'd like to reduce the heat gain on. Unfortunately a Sedum covering is not an option.

    In other parts of the world you could buy white EPDM on the roll, (at least 20 years ago when I started roofing), but it still doesn't appear to be available over here.

    I installed and repaired both Sarnafil & EPDM roofs back in the day. EPDM is by far the easiest and most forgiving to work with. Also the easiest to repair to a good standard when other trades have 'done their thing'.
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