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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorstonecold
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2024
     
    I'm not able to find numbers anywhere that indicate what air flow rate is comfortable vs a bit drafty/noticeable.

    The situation is that the ground floor has no corridor and one huge lounge that you walk through to reach the other downstairs rooms - so all the air going into the 3 bedrooms upstairs is going to need to go through the lounge in order to be extracted via the kitchen and downstairs loo extract valves. Is the guidance somewhere suggesting a particular limit for flow rate?

    Design is getting finalised soon but the lounge has 44m3/h coming through a single door undercut from upstairs, plus 34m3/h from the supply valve (meaning 78m3/h leaving the lounge via a single door). That sounds like a lot to me. The lounge is about 20sqm with fairly low ceilings. I'm super sensitive to air movement /draughts even if they are warm air, so is this flow rate too high? We could reduce flow through the lounge by adding an extract valve in the entrance hall/stairs area, before it reaches the lounge. Or we could increase the flow to the bathroom extract.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2024
     
    I don't have MVHR but I do have an A2A ducted heat pump ( AKA aircon) shouldn't the flow and return volumes roughly match. If you have 2x return registers then your sums seem awry, I may have that wrong.
    Like I said I don't have MVHR.
  1.  
    I think to get a meaningful response you'd need to add a few more pieces of information
    - ceiling heights. You say these are low. What are we talking 2.3m, or even lower?
    - occupancy. How many people are likely to be in the living space?
    - flow rate of supply extract terminals involved. I got a bit confused where the air was going to and from in your description above.

    The passivhaus guidance is to aim for 0.3-0.4 air changes per hour, which I think would be a bit lower than the flow rate you describe above, but is also guidance for the whole building rather than a single room.

    Most of the industry guidance is based around relative humidity and how 'dry' the air feels rather than physical draughts. In my experience, at Passivhaus flow rates you only really feel the air flow if you are holding a hand close to the terminal. There is something called the Coanda effect that means (I think) that air supplied at high level near the ceiling will stay buoyant due to static pressure in the room and be thrown across the room rather than falling immediately and causing draughts.

    There's more on this here if you want to get into the deeper physics & maths:

    https://www.cibsejournal.com/cpd/modules/2022-12-air/
    • CommentAuthorminisaurus
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2025
     
    Much depends on the temperature of the air. At my work (hospital) people we blow in 18 degrees air, people in offices start to complain around the 20 l/s mark. Although much depends on the terminal design and the positioning of the small twizzly things. At home we have ASHP and the outdoor vents have approx 6 l/s - gets uncomfortable at around 4 degrees outdoor temp. 44 m3/h is 12 l/s - I don't think you'd notice anything, plus the air will get warmed up on its way down(?) to the living room, if I've understood correctly
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2025
     
    I guess this is no longer relevant to the OP due to the timescale but, for interest, when I went looking for guidance on this, a 10mm gap below a standard door was said to be good for a maximum of 40m³/hr, though an undercut door isn't the only option.

    Other possibilities include inserting a transfer grille in the wall above the door, or using a transfer duct spanning between two extra ceiling vents, one each side of the door, with a loop of pipe to connect them.
    • CommentAuthorsgt_woulds
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2025
     
    And intumescent closure devices to prevent the spread of flame between rooms
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2025
     
    Posted By: sgt_wouldsAnd intumescent closure devices to prevent the spread of flame between rooms
    Sorry, but under what circumstances are they necessary (or recommended)? Many people, including us, leave internal doors open or ajar.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2025
     
    Posted By: djhSorry, but under what circumstances are they necessary (or recommended)? Many people, including us, leave internal doors open or ajar.


    My take would be where building regulations would require them. HMO's, public buildings, Care homes etc. Normal dwellings most unlikely but could depend on the size of rooms I think. I had a conversation with my BCO when I was running ventilation ducting from one ceiling void to another as to whether the ducting needed boxing in where it went from one room to another and he said rooms were too small to come under the regulation but I do not know what that size is. Think it is a sq M value.
  2.  
    Also for houses of three+ stories, eg loft conversions. Building regs AD B requires a protected stairway for the upper floors to escape. Supposed to have fire rated doors on the downstairs rooms, so fires downstairs cannot quickly block the escape from upstairs. Previous versions of AD B had self closing doors with intumescent seals (my houses from the 90s had them, all propped open) but I can't immediately see that in current AD B.

    There's some stuff in AD B about the protected stairway should have completely separated ventilation system and ducts from the other rooms shouldn't pass through the stairway except with fire or smoke dampers. IDK how often this is complied with.

    Also there's fire separation between house and an attached garage, so eg you couldn't put the mhrv unit in the garage and duct it into the house.
  3.  
    * the Scottish Building Standards still requires self closing fire doors from living or bedrooms onto the stairwell, for 3 storey houses. And the rules are different about mhrv connecting to the stairway. IDK if it's always been different in Scotland.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2025
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenPrevious versions of AD B had self closing doors with intumescent seals (my houses from the 90s had them, all propped open) but I can't immediately see that in current AD B.
    Fire door sets are still required in E&W but, except for doors to an integral garage, the requirement for closers was dropped for domesic homes (around 2010?) after a report found that many people disabled the closers, and among those who didn't there were over 30,000 finger-trap injuries each year.

    Posted By: sgt_wouldsAnd intumescent closure devices to prevent the spread of flame between rooms
    I've not seen any requirement for that in a domestic setting, any more than there is a requirement for them on conduits or waste pipes that pass between rooms or floors. Except, presumably, on ducts through a compartment wall between a house and garage, when the MVHR unit is within the latter.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2025
     
    Ventilation rates guidance is a mess! Occupancy is barely considered, l/s by number of bedrooms , floor area, then air changes per hour

    Generally ventilation rates suggested are way too high. Flow rates through ducts and terminals can cause noise problems.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2025
     
    Posted By: tonyVentilation rates guidance is a mess! Occupancy is barely considered, l/s by number of bedrooms , floor area, then air changes per hour
    I agree that the ventilation system has to be able to deal with the maximum number of residents, but that seems like common sense?

    Generally ventilation rates suggested are way too high.
    There's nothing that requires you to operate your ventilation at the design rate. I frequently have mine at the 'off' setting of 50 m³/hr since there's normally just two of us at home.

    Posted By: tonyFlow rates through ducts and terminals can cause noise problems.
    That's a design issue with the ducts, not a problem with the flow rates. PH design requires the speed through the ducts to be calculated and kept low; i.e. the ducts need to be big enough to supply the required flow rate quietly. Anybody can follow the same methodology.
    • CommentAuthorstonecold
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2025
     
    I think I should have said that I was looking for the air flow rate formula. Our MVHR is fitted and commissioned now but being a constantly cold person I'm finding the bedroom has a cold draught directed at me despite being super careful with supply valve location (will get another thread started on this).

    I did find the air flow valves from the Passivhaus Trust Good Practice Guide MVHR for Single Dwellings https://www.passivhaustrust.org.uk/UserFiles/File/Technical%20Papers/2018%20MVHR%20Good%20Practice%20Guide%20rev%201.1.pdf

    (2018 version)
    Air flow rate per room

    Each space should have mechanical ventilation; either supply, transfer or extract, room.
    Supply —consideration should be given to the planned/likely use of spaces.
    A good starting point for bedrooms is ~20m³/h for single rooms and ~30m³/hr for double rooms.

    Extract air flow rates are sized based on moisture generation rates and thus are based on periods of moisture generation, i.e. air flow rates required for peak ventilation (fan speed 3) typical figures used for Passivhaus design are below, note that certification does not require compliance with these:

    Kitchen 60 m³/h
    Bathroom, utility room 40 m³/h
    WC 20 m³/h

    :angry::shocked:
      IMG_8935.jpeg
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