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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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  1.  
    I've been reading other post on this but still can't figure out the best way for my house. I have a 1930s semi with suspended timber floor, with enough space in the crawlspace to insulate from below (and I want to avoid damaging the floorboards which I plan to expose soon). The floors get cold and I want remove the carpets, so I need to insulate it somehow. I react very badly to mould, so while I want to improve insulation, my main priority while doing it is avoiding damp risk.

    We had rockwool and netting fitted under an ECO scheme, but it got damp in multiple areas and was making timbers damp. Two different damp specialists said I should remove it, so I did. I have since cleaned out the wall cavities and improved ventilation in there. Both specialists recommended PIR board rather than rockwool, but it seems to me that the best way to avoid mould risk would be to keep it breathable e.g. with mineral wool and a breathable membrane? But I'm unsure as that is pretty close to what I ripped out last year!

    Any advice/experience on a method that has the lowest risk for damp and mould, and is manageable to do well for a moderately skilled DIYer would be welcome.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 26th 2025
     
    Rockwool and netting shouldn't have caused damp, so I think something else must have been causing/supplying the dampness. So the first order of business is to find out what caused the problem. Did you or can you now ask these 'damp specialists' how they thought the rockwool and netting was causing damp, and what they recommend instead?

    But if they both recommend PIR than I wouldn't put much trust in them, to be honest.

    One of the main things to look at is ventilation. How are the rooms ventilated?

    It may be your house has fairly high humidity (get a cheap T&H meter to check. Well worth a few pounds!) and the under-floor insulation meant that the underside of the insulation was the coldest place so condensation formed there.

    Until you know what happened and why (or can take a pretty good guess at it), there's no point planning new insulation.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2025
     
    Also, how adequately is the void below the floor ventilated?
  2.  
    Posted By: djhRockwool and netting shouldn't have caused damp, so I think something else must have been causing/supplying the dampness. So the first order of business is to find out what caused the problem. Did you or can you now ask these 'damp specialists' how they thought the rockwool and netting was causing damp, and what they recommend instead?

    But if they both recommend PIR than I wouldn't put much trust in them, to be honest.

    One of the main things to look at is ventilation. How are the rooms ventilated?

    It may be your house has fairly high humidity (get a cheap T&H meter to check. Well worth a few pounds!) and the under-floor insulation meant that the underside of the insulation was the coldest place so condensation formed there.

    Until you know what happened and why (or can take a pretty good guess at it), there's no point planning new insulation.


    Two causes I identified - one was the wall cavities were full in various places of old mortar and blown in insulation (now fixed) and two was that the air bricks on the higher side of the house are high up and so were completely blocked by the rockwool (also now fixed). The relative humidity in there is still reading in the upper 70s, but I expect that to drop a bit as I've just cleared out an additional problematic area (about 3 square metres of damp soil running to above the damp proof course), and there's a bit of sub-base drying out in that space.

    It's a 3 bed 1930s semi, it has two air bricks on each long side and one on the short side, all now clear.

    So I guess the 2 questions are 1) does that sound good enough to be moving onto ventilation, and if so, 2) does the rockwool and breathable membrane sound like the best option for my purposes?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2025
     
    I am one of the few that like to see a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation for floors. For me this doubles as an air tightness layer something missing from all old suspended wooden floors.

    Nice to be able to work from underneath. Well done sorting out the ventilation.
  3.  
    Posted By: tonyI am one of the few that like to see a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation for floors. For me this doubles as an air tightness layer something missing from all old suspended wooden floors.

    Nice to be able to work from underneath. Well done sorting out the ventilation.


    Thanks Tony. This is where I find it hard to pick the best route. My concern with a vapour barrier would be the risk of trapping moisture on the underside of the floorboards? But of course without an air tightness layer, more moist air will be able to make its way through. Also, if going for an air tightness layer, I'm guessing foil-backed PIR board would do a similar job and just be different in terms of installation method (and potentially cost of materials)?
  4.  
    As I recall most of the previous posts that I have seen here when insulating suspended floors recommend a VCL under the floor boards, as Tony says on the warm side of the insulation. Moisture from the the house air will only be a problem when it condenses out due to a drop in temp., on the warm side of the insulation there will be no temp. drop therefore no condensation.

    Using foil-backed PIR board would have its problems because it is difficult to get a good fit between the timbers and people usually foam the sides to get a good fit. Whilst the foil will provide a VCL for the insulation the joists won't have a VCL and the foam is only partially vapour closed (AFAIK) so there may still be a problem at the joists with condensation.

    I suspect the original problem of damp in the insulation was in part due to no VCL under the floor boards. (Which IMO both the original installers and subsequent specialists should have known)

    One solution may be to treat the under floor like a warm roof, that is to put the insulation outboard of the timbers so if you have the space put the insulation under the joists which would keep all the timber warm and condensation free. A VCL could then be put across the bottom of the joists on the warm side of the insulation where it belongs.

    Another solution would be to put the VCL under the floor boards and around the joists then fill between the joists and a good amount under the joists to keep the bottom of the joists warm

    One problem with board insulation is that mice love it and can destroy it in v. short order unless it is protected.
  5.  
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryAs I recall most of the previous posts that I have seen here when insulating suspended floors recommend a VCL under the floor boards, as Tony says on the warm side of the insulation. Moisture from the the house air will only be a problem when it condenses out due to a drop in temp., on the warm side of the insulation there will be no temp. drop therefore no condensation.

    Using foil-backed PIR board would have its problems because it is difficult to get a good fit between the timbers and people usually foam the sides to get a good fit. Whilst the foil will provide a VCL for the insulation the joists won't have a VCL and the foam is only partially vapour closed (AFAIK) so there may still be a problem at the joists with condensation.

    I suspect the original problem of damp in the insulation was in part due to no VCL under the floor boards. (Which IMO both the original installers and subsequent specialists should have known)

    One solution may be to treat the under floor like a warm roof, that is to put the insulation outboard of the timbers so if you have the space put the insulation under the joists which would keep all the timber warm and condensation free. A VCL could then be put across the bottom of the joists on the warm side of the insulation where it belongs.

    Another solution would be to put the VCL under the floor boards and around the joists then fill between the joists and a good amount under the joists to keep the bottom of the joists warm

    One problem with board insulation is that mice love it and can destroy it in v. short order unless it is protected.


    Thanks Peter, that's really helpful. It makes sense about not having a VCL previously, the 90 year old floorboards were letting a fair bit of humid air through. I'm just a bit concerned about the VCL trapping condensation in (as in the winter, I'm' guessing the insulated timbers will still be relatively cold compared to the air from the house), but with exposed floorboards, hopefully anything that did get through would just make its way back out the same way.
  6.  
    Posted By: DannySheffieldI'm' guessing the insulated timbers will still be relatively cold compared to the air from the house), but with exposed floorboards, hopefully anything that did get through would just make its way back out the same way.

    The key would be to have enough insulation around the timbers to keep them nice and cosy. Anything that did get through (the VCL?) won’t make its way out the same way, it will need to be removed by the floor void ventilation but if there is enough insulation around the joists then there won't be any condensation as the dew point will be somewhere towards the outside of the insulation which doesn't matter.

    Just a point about exposed floor boards, I had a house that was 150 years old and I thought that the floorboards would look nice sanded and varnished. As soon as I started sanding off the top surface wood worm tracks appeared immediately under the surface - I had to abandon the idea and get carpet. Best to try a small area first !
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2025
     
    Posted By: DannySheffieldIt's a 3 bed 1930s semi, it has two air bricks on each long side and one on the short side, all now clear.
    That's unlikely to be adequate.

    Building Regs Part C require 2 opposing walls to have ventilation of either 1,500mm²/m run of external wall, or 500mm²/m² of floor area (whichever is greater).

    A 1930's semis measures maybe 5m wide, so would require 7,500mm² of ventilation. A new brick-sized terracotta airbrick will give roughly 1,250mm², so that would be 6 air-bricks, not 1 or 2 (or 3 airbricks, if they are double height).

    You'd also need to make sure that the flow from one side of the building to the other isn't blocked by intermediate walls.
  7.  
    Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
    Posted By: DannySheffieldI'm' guessing the insulated timbers will still be relatively cold compared to the air from the house), but with exposed floorboards, hopefully anything that did get through would just make its way back out the same way.

    The key would be to have enough insulation around the timbers to keep them nice and cosy. Anything that did get through (the VCL?) won’t make its way out the same way, it will need to be removed by the floor void ventilation but if there is enough insulation around the joists then there won't be any condensation as the dew point will be somewhere towards the outside of the insulation which doesn't matter.

    Just a point about exposed floor boards, I had a house that was 150 years old and I thought that the floorboards would look nice sanded and varnished. As soon as I started sanding off the top surface wood worm tracks appeared immediately under the surface - I had to abandon the idea and get carpet. Best to try a small area first !


    Thanks, that's really helpful. Fortunately there is enough clearance in there to insulate the underside of the joists easily enough. And that's a great tip about woodworm, I'll have a little go myself before booking someone to sand the floors!
  8.  
    Posted By: Mike1
    Posted By: DannySheffieldIt's a 3 bed 1930s semi, it has two air bricks on each long side and one on the short side, all now clear.
    That's unlikely to be adequate.

    Building Regs Part C require 2 opposing walls to have ventilation of either 1,500mm²/m run of external wall, or 500mm²/m² of floor area (whichever is greater).

    A 1930's semis measures maybe 5m wide, so would require 7,500mm² of ventilation. A new brick-sized terracotta airbrick will give roughly 1,250mm², so that would be 6 air-bricks, not 1 or 2 (or 3 airbricks, if they are double height).

    You'd also need to make sure that the flow from one side of the building to the other isn't blocked by intermediate walls.


    Thanks Mike. To clarify, the airbricks are plastic ones, 4 doubles and a single, so that should be enough? There is a honeycomb sleeper wall running across a lot of the middle, but no solid obstructions.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2025 edited
     
    Posted By: DannySheffieldTo clarify, the airbricks are plastic ones, 4 doubles and a single, so that should be enough?
    Plastic vents do provide considerably more ventilation than terracotta, so that may well be adequate; check the maths to be sure.

    The negative would be that having only 2 airbricks per face may well leave zones of still air, which may or may not be a problem. Personally I'd add a couple of additional ones on the front & back wall to reduce that risk.

    Posted By: DannySheffieldThere is a honeycomb sleeper wall running across a lot of the middle, but no solid obstructions.
    Good :)
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