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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2025 edited
     
    Does anyone have or had experience of Voltage optimisers, the ones that fit between the meter and the CU.
    This type of thing, there are others:-

    https://egesolutionsltd.co.uk/eco-max/
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2025 edited
     
    Mostly they have bad comments, and I know they are widely used in commercial applications, generally as an energy/cost saving where I sense they do work.
    The domestic scene seems very different and energy / cost saving isn't my need. In my case, and possibly many others too, a problem exists.
    AFAIK my 10kW solar array and two string inverters seem to push too much juice "up the spout" on a sunny day esp. with plenty of other arrays in the village doing the same thing, resulting in Local Grid over voltage.
    Hitherto, this hasn't been a problem but I had a Zappi EV charger fitted which doesn't like these spikes and shuts down showing "Bad Voltage". This is annoying when you want to utilise the excess solar to charge the car. The obvious thing, I guess, would be to start switching on other loads in the home to try and increase the house load. Hence my interest in looking at any fixes to the system, VOs were the obvious.

    I guess also that there may be settings on the inverters that could be tweaked causing a shut down in such spikes but that kinda defeats the object.

    NB edit: perhaps there's a third way, by tripping the EV charger breaker leaving the Zappi off until required, maybe that would work albeit onerous.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2025
     
    Snake oil
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2025 edited
     
    There's a good thread at https://community.eonnext.com/threads/8546-Voltages-spikes-on-my-mains-power-exceeding-253-volts/ that seemingly explains the situation pretty well. TL;DR - talk to Zappi about loosening their over-voltage protection.

    edit: There's also a page on my DNO's site that mentions EV chargers specifically https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/voltage-changes-in-your-home-or-business

    edit again: Perhaps also worth talking to your DNO if you establish that the spikes aren't your fault. How is your solar power regulated to conform with G.99 or whatever?
  1.  
    Posted By: owlmanon a sunny day esp. with plenty of other arrays in the village doing the same thing, resulting in Local Grid over voltage.



    Posted By: owlmanZappi EV charger fitted which doesn't like these spikes

    Do you mean over voltage or spikes ? Two different things with different solutions. An over voltage would be a sustained (over) voltage outside of the designed parameters whereas a spike would typically be a high voltage transient of v. short duration. If it is spikes that are causing the problem then a mains spike suppressor will be needed. For over voltage a over voltage surge protection is needed. You can get the two combined but read the label to make sure what you get is what you need to solve the problem
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2025
     
    If there's local grid overvoltage(>253vac) then check if all the neighbours and your own PV installs are legit ie sub 3.68kw installs have been notified to the DNO and greater than 3.68kw have DNO consent, then get the DNO to sort out the problem.

    Obviously if there's been little or no interaction with the DNO then the problem is likely to be found in everyones nearest mirror!
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2025
     
    I have never understood the optimiser operation. From my understanding I cannot see how it can save money. If the voltage is high then the current is lower but wattage i.e energy remains the same. So if you are boiling a kettle running it at lower voltage will take longer at lower volts but will consume the same amount of energy which is what you pay for.
    I think there is an argument somewhere that control of the voltage sine wave is involved, but have I not delved into that.

    Posted By: owlmanAFAIK my 10kW solar array and two string inverters seem to push too much juice "up the spout" on a sunny day esp. with plenty of other arrays in the village doing the same thing, resulting in Local Grid over voltage.


    Have you considered a battery if you not got one. See if the DNO will allow you to export more. I queried if I could raise my grid output from 3.6 to 6 (my maximum solar output) and they came back saying could do 5 no charge, if I needed to do 6 it would be a £750 fee for a test and even then may not be allowed. I settled for the 5.
    • CommentAuthorsgt_woulds
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2025
     
    I have fitted voltage regulators in the past and they do seem to be reliable, but yes the advertised savings in electricity use are just marketing nonsense.

    Any cost savings will result from the longer life of electrical appliances running at a consistent voltage within the range they are designed for.

    Solar inverters do seem to last longer in combination with a VR.

    In the early days of grid-connected PV (I started in 2001), we had many issues with variable grid voltage and mapped out areas in the country that have consistently higher grid voltage. Cambridge, Devon, North Norfolk all had shockingly high floating voltage (approaching 260 volts and spikes over 350 volts in worse cases).

    Some areas were better than others, but if you lived in the sticks, at the end of a transmission line, or next to a heavy-duty industrial factory, you were likely to sit well above 253 volts. (Probably still are)

    Quite a few customers complained that TV's, radios, microwaves, and toasters would only last a year or so in their house...

    In those early days, we had to get dispensation from the DNO and SMA (inverters) to manually reset the Voltage range parameters outside the permitted range. It was a PITA (using power line modems) and sometimes took days of trial and error to achieve a working system. The DNOs really didn't care, as there were so few grid-connected PV systems in those days.

    That changed with the introduction of FiT, and the DNOs 'should' have much better control of the voltages - if you suspect high voltages or continual spikes, in the first instance, you should contact your own DNO as Philedge advised.

    You need to determine what the real problem is. High voltage or spikes?


    Spikes are the cheapest to solve:

    Back in the day, SPDs were horrifically expensive and only fitted for lightning protection of inverters in exposed locations. The one in my own consumer unit cost over £200 - got it free as a 'test' unit, otherwise I couldn't justify it.

    Today, you can buy a DIN rail-mounted one (to fit in your CU) for about £17 (plus fitting). It's so cheap, I don't understand why they are not a standard fitting. Especially if you have expensive electronics in your house, like inverters and EV chargers. I believe EVs come with built-in SPD's but I'd still rather not risk that high-value item connected to the grid without an SPD on the house supply.


    If it's high floating voltage, then get a VR. They are more expensive, but cheaper than the battery solutions suggested (which wouldn't solve the underlying problem in any case
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2025
     
    Thanks for your replies.
    To update, I decided to give Northern Powergrid a call, and to their credit, ( first class service there ), they had an engineer call within a couple of hours. He checked the incoming mains which was within legal requirement but at the upper 250V end. This bore out the graph that Myenergi had sent me of one particular days Zappi voltage recording.
    So I guess an excess of PV production in the village as a whole MAY? be causing spikes, esp if the mains transformer settings are already on the high side.
    He implied they would most likely put a voltage recorder at the transformer end for a couple of weeks. Looks like we may get to the bottom of it.

    Re: The OP about Voltage Optimisers or Regulators etc. I had already read a loads of online stuff about their usefulness with all the usual disparaging comments. However, reading carefully, most of the bad comments seem centered around their cost/energy saving, which is not why I'd considered them.
    I would simply use one to bring the house voltage closer to 230V and if that has long term cost benefits for my almost all electric home then that's a bonus.
    At about £250/300 plus fitting though it would appear uneconomic and I may have to have a re-think.

    @ sgt_woulds; Yes Simon I do have SPDs on all my CUs
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2025
     
    Posted By: owlmanThis bore out the graph that Myenergi had sent me of one particular days Zappi voltage recording.
    Have you been shown a graph showing what the Zappi sees when it shuts down?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2025 edited
     
    Yes, their tech guy sent me a small screenshot on one particular period, it peaked for two periods at 0920 and 0950 at 257 ish. and 260.6 V. Unfortunately I don't have a complete longer duration record. Finding such a data logger may be useful.

    edit: it may be a result of long supply cable runs in rural areas and Network transformers at the limit of their capacity on those runs. I'm simply guessing.
  2.  
    Posted By: owlmanedit: it may be a result of long supply cable runs in rural areas and Network transformers at the limit of their capacity on those runs. I'm simply guessing.

    We are at the end of a long run with years of low voltage, the DNO put the transformer up to the max to help us which meant that any up-tick caused those nearer the xformer to get over voltage. Sometime back the DNO gave us 3 phase (at their expense) to allow us to split our loads, this helped a bit. Eventually the DNO installed an additional xformer half way between us and the original xformer. Our voltage is now maintained within the legal limits.
    (At one point our voltage would drop to 193ish when we had full loading).
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2025 edited
     
    Posted By: owlmanYes, their tech guy sent me a small screenshot on one particular period, it peaked for two periods at 0920 and 0950 at 257 ish. and 260.6 V.
    How long were the peaks? Can they not adjust the Zappi to ignore those peaks?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2025 edited
     
    I don't know if they can adjust the settings any more, I'll ask. I've a feeling they've tweaked them once already I'll check that too.
  3.  
    The over voltage protection settings and delays are laid out in G99, think it's required to trip at 262 V after 1 second.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2025
     
    262 vac is the point at which our inverters have shut down in the past before grid upgrades that now hold it around the max of 253vàc on a sunny day.

    AFAIK DNOs run the grid at as high a voltage as they can get away with to max the power they can transmit. Insulation will stand way more than that so there's negligible cost to operate that way. If they drop the voltage to 230vac where lots of people think it should be then they would have to increase the current to get the same power. That would need lots of bigger cables costing ££££££ so the higher voltage/lower current is the way they operate.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2025
     
    Plus, the theory goes, that running higher voltages increases heat and energy consumption.
    More energy = more money for the suppliers, no ?
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2025
     
    Maybe more power but used for a shorter period??? Same total energy???
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2025
     
    Posted By: owlmanPlus, the theory goes, that running higher voltages increases heat and energy consumption.
    More energy = more money for the suppliers, no ?
    Not really. Most devices have power supplies that adjust what they take to just what they need. Simple heaters and the like don't care - you use them for as long as you need them, however much power they draw.
  4.  
    And then there is the power factor that can also influence (confuse?) the issue.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2025
     
    Posted By: djh
    Not really. Most devices have power supplies that adjust what they take to just what they need.


    Usually smaller electronic DC devices. Usually not so with larger AC appliances AFAIK

    @ philedge Ohms Law certainly applies in this instance to resistive loads. However, (Wikipedia)

    The main commercial benefit when installing VO units, is on inductive loads, like motors which run pumps, fans and the like.[citation needed] In the home, the potential energy saving can be up to 12% on electricity bills. A VO device will lower the voltage to the most efficient level to maximise the savings on electricity consumption, so you may notice certain things taking a little longer, such as a kettle may take a little longer to boil.[4]

    It is a common misconception that fridges and freezers do not provide savings through voltage optimisation because they are fitted with a thermostat. Fridges and freezers operate completely differently from resistive heating devices. If a resistive heating device is driven from a higher voltage the result is heat which is helpful in its intended purpose (heating). If a fridge or freezer is driven from a higher voltage the result is also heat however this is not helpful in its intended purpose (cooling). The compressor motor power output is reduced slightly by voltage optimisation so the fridge/freezer thermostat will keep the motor on a little longer however overall the effect is for the motor to run slightly longer at much lower losses. Tests at Manchester university showed a 10 °C reduction in motor temperature under voltage optimisation due to the reduced losses in the motor.
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