Green Building Forum - what's the best way to use this small river ? Sun, 31 May 2026 03:54:16 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28908#Comment_28908 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28908#Comment_28908 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 12:45:19 +0100 bobo What would be the best way to use it's power ?
Thanks.
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1438/0003766qs1.jpg
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/1536/0003763mm5.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4904/0003765cw4.jpg
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2293/0003767rw3.jpg]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28924#Comment_28924 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28924#Comment_28924 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 15:53:08 +0100 fostertom http://www.british-hydro.co.uk/download.pdf
http://rapidshare.com/files/133406549/Alexandersson_-_Living_Water_-_Viktor_Schauberger_and_the_Secrets_of_Natural_Energy__1990_.pdf]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28963#Comment_28963 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28963#Comment_28963 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:51:42 +0100 bobo I was thinking more along the lines of a simple turbine like the Navitron ones.
Are these any good ?

ps........its Snowdonia :wink:]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28964#Comment_28964 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28964#Comment_28964 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:17:32 +0100 fostertom what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28965#Comment_28965 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28965#Comment_28965 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:18:46 +0100 tony
Do calculations first, then cost it, then decide.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28977#Comment_28977 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=28977#Comment_28977 Sun, 03 Aug 2008 23:40:18 +0100 fostertom what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29056#Comment_29056 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29056#Comment_29056 Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:46:26 +0100 mrswhitecat what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29088#Comment_29088 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29088#Comment_29088 Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:41:17 +0100 pahuk
I have been deterred from applying for any licenses by very broad brush attitudes from EA officers with comments like 'of course you will need to change the flow of the water and we can't allow that' and 'the impact on water life will be devastating, what if a fish swims into the turbine'

I feel a lot of this has to do with a lack of education and understanding within the relevant authorities (especially where planning is concerned) and a presumption that all hydro electric plants are the same as the huge civic hydro electric dams but on a smaller scale.

As a result, I'm afraid I have absolutely no experience with building anything like them, even though I really want to.

I hope it is not all doom and gloom and wish bobo the best of luck and would be interested to see how you get on.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29544#Comment_29544 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29544#Comment_29544 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 08:52:13 +0100 Cliff Pope what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29552#Comment_29552 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29552#Comment_29552 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:50:37 +0100 fostertom what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29590#Comment_29590 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29590#Comment_29590 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:55:24 +0100 Cliff Pope what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29600#Comment_29600 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29600#Comment_29600 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:57:24 +0100 joe.e Posted By: fostertomA 12ft diam overshot wheel only generates 1 horsepower per ft of width - but huge torque.
Does that torque translate in practice into a higher output for any generator connected to the wheel? If so, how do the calculations work?]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29614#Comment_29614 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29614#Comment_29614 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:29:50 +0100 tony what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29621#Comment_29621 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29621#Comment_29621 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:17:16 +0100 joe.e I'm intrigued, because there's a semi-derelict mill near where I live; the wheel, about 12 foot diameter, is there but almost collapsed, the mill-house is crumbling, but the mill-race is intact, about a hundred foot run all neatly lined with big pieces of slate, with nice stone sluices all ready to open. The owner has refused to sell the place to anyone, evidently preferring to let it rot, but it had occurred to me that one day it could be a good spot for a little private hydro-electric project.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29623#Comment_29623 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29623#Comment_29623 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:43:45 +0100 jamesingram It was in a national park
a catchment point was constructed at the highest point in a convient pool in the stream , then a 150mm pipe was run about 60m+across pasture the most direct route possible to the lowest point and the generator shed ,then on to feed back into the stream
it was all done in a very low keys way
As far as I'm aware ita been happily generating energy for the last 18 year without problem and the knowledge of any authorities]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29630#Comment_29630 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29630#Comment_29630 Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:55:31 +0100 joe.e what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29644#Comment_29644 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29644#Comment_29644 Sat, 09 Aug 2008 09:00:09 +0100 fostertom Posted By: joe.ethe wheel would have to be designed to accommodate as much water as possible to maximise power, but would maybe be inefficient if it was handling a lot less than its designed capacity?Not particularly - you mean if the buckets were half empty? You don't need to know the shape of the buckets as long as they're big enough.
Posted By: joe.eone day it could be a good spot for a little private hydro-electric project
Only inasmuch as water extraction rights exist (or not, if they've lapsed or been sold). You wouldn't use the leat, wheel or mill building - it would be done as jamesingram describes, which means it could be done anywhere, regardless of previous waterworks. http://www.british-hydro.co.uk/download.pdf has everything you need to know.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29668#Comment_29668 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29668#Comment_29668 Sat, 09 Aug 2008 13:03:05 +0100 jamesingram thinking about it, the run must have been 100m+ and very roughly the head was around 30m]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29678#Comment_29678 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29678#Comment_29678 Sat, 09 Aug 2008 13:44:29 +0100 mike7 Old geezer remembers ..... I made a working model cross flow turbine for them about 25 yrs ago. It drove a bike dynamo.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29818#Comment_29818 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29818#Comment_29818 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:03:22 +0100 Cliff Pope
Drill
Pumps
Grinding corn
The uses must be endless one you have rotating shafting in a workshop.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29869#Comment_29869 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29869#Comment_29869 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:50:00 +0100 fostertom what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29872#Comment_29872 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29872#Comment_29872 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:33:39 +0100 Paul in Montreal Posted By: fostertommechanically driven heat pump, for infinite COP! (in terms of bought fuel)

COP is always defined as (power output) / (power input) - it makes no mention of the cost of that input power. Though it would be a good use of that river, that's for sure since it would be both the source of the heat and the mechanical power needed to make it useful.

Paul in Montreal.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29875#Comment_29875 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29875#Comment_29875 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:55:35 +0100 fostertom what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29876#Comment_29876 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29876#Comment_29876 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:59:33 +0100 Paul in Montreal Posted By: fostertomIn this case it meant coefficient of pocketmoney.

Howabout Coefficient Of Parsimony? That would certainly appeal to my fellow Yorkshiremen ;)

Paul born in East Yorkshire and now in Montreal]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29885#Comment_29885 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29885#Comment_29885 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:27:30 +0100 fostertom what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29886#Comment_29886 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29886#Comment_29886 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:36:50 +0100 Davipon what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29898#Comment_29898 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29898#Comment_29898 Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:27:34 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: Paul in MontrealCOP is always defined as (power output) / (power input) - it makes no mention of the cost of that input power.

If what you say was true then the long-term average COP of all devices would be exactly one.

To make sense COP counts the paid-for power in and useful power out. E.g., a split air-conditioner type heat pump in heating mode might have:

1. Electrical input: 3 kW.
2. Heat delivered to the room: 9 kW.
3. Heat absorbed from the outside: 6.5 kW.
4. Heat and noise wasted to the outside world: 0.5 kW.

Adding all the inputs and outputs you'd get a COP = (9 + 0.5) / (3 + 6.5) = 1.

More sensibly, you take the useful heat to the room (9 kW) and divide by the paid-for electricity (3 kW) and get a COP of 3.

In other words, you ignore the energy going in which has zero cost. If Tom wants to regard the power from his water mill as zero cost then that's up to him. Personally, I think there's at least an opportunity cost there.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29904#Comment_29904 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29904#Comment_29904 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:57:29 +0100 Paul in Montreal Posted By: Ed Davies
To make sense COP counts the paid-for power in and useful power out. E.g., a split air-conditioner type heat pump in heating mode might have:

It's not paid for power - it's power you supply to run the pump in the form of mechanical work. So my comment still stands - COP = power output / power supplied to run the pump

The heat moved by the pump is not counted in the COP calculation.

Paul in Montreal.]]> what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29911#Comment_29911 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=29911#Comment_29911 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:30:29 +0100 Miked2714 what's the best way to use this small river ? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=30024#Comment_30024 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2273&Focus=30024#Comment_30024 Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:59:18 +0100 pahuk It seems that it is very dependant on the area you are in and not necessarily the merits of the scheme as to the response obtained from the Environment Agency, I wonder if this has something to do with education rather than policy.
For an example, a project I had some involvement in (not huge technical involvement though so please don't ask me for all the facts and figures) was the reuse of an existing mill with existing chase but having lost its wheel some time ago.
The project was to re-insert an overshoot water wheel into the existing chase (is that the right word?) and use it to generate a small quantity of power and use the mechanical movement for other demonstrations within the old working mill to grind corn etc.
The Environment Agency's response was less than helpful and felt like a huge hurdle jumping exercise with comments like those I posted before being banded about and a renewal of a historic extraction licence being the subject of our misery.
Despite the fact the chase was not dry, i.e. it already had water running through it, and to all intensive purposes the mill was in working order, with the exception of the mill wheel, the EA refused to allow the occupants to control the water on 'environmental and flood grounds'
I would be happy to hear of peoples successful applications as this is of interest to me in the future.]]>