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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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  1.  
    I'm currently looking at our options for heating our house.

    We both work from home.

    It's about 100sqm floor area, two stories, 600+ years old in places, constructed originally in timber framing, though there is little to see outside now as most has been brick skinned, but a lot of timber remains inside. Aluminium DG was fitted some years ago.

    Currently we have oil fired rayburn, very underpowered as we have 19 radiators. They get warm, but not hot. It's enough to keep the place unchilled shall we say. I've turned off several rads that are in rooms that don't need them and removed the two rom the kitchen - not sure why they were installed as the kitchen the warmest pace to be with the rayburn!!!
    We also have a wood burner in the lounge, lovely and toasty when lit.
    We are re-instating a chimney to the room my wife has as her office and will either have an open fire or install a small wood burner in there - she feels the cold.

    At present we have a ready supply of loads of off-cuts of timber from a shed company, we could get 20x what we currently use. The timber doesn't burn for long and constant re-fueling of the fire is needed.

    My options are,

    A large wood burning boiler - we have space to fit it and a spare chimney to use where it could go. It'd need to be a largish one to accomodate the size of off-cuts we get rather than just pellets - I don't want to spend all my free time pelleting or cutting down the wood.
    Benefits - good heat supply - not an awful amount of work needed to fit it - free fuel supply
    Cons - will take up most of my work room - free fuel supply may stop at any time - some fueling and looking after needed

    GSHP - We have plenty of land to lay underground pipes, most of which gets sun all day long when it's out. We also have a moat around 3/4 of the house, which is filled with water, as I believe a 'wet' system is more efficient.
    Benefits - free fuel supply forever
    Cons - cost to fit, as we'd have to come round/under/over moat to get pipes to the house if we had a land based system - heat supply? I'm not sure - but would it make our house nice and warm all day long in weather like today at -3' here now at 9.50am. If we had a wet system we'd need to make sure the moat didn't dry up, which last year it very nearly did.

    We don't just burn our offcuts either, I've gradually made a nice picket fence and two gates to keep the dogs either in the front or back with us when we are out and the horses etc are out the other side.

    So, what would be your decision?
    Why?

    What are the other pros and cons I've missed?
    What should I also be aware of?

    Graham
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2007
     
    GSHP are not great with radiators due to their low operating temperature would be better with UFH but thats probably not paractical.
    You will probably need a large one and may need three phase supply to heat 19 radiators!

    You ought to start by working out the heat requirement. To do this you need to estimate the U values in your house.
    It may well be that improving insulation and draught proofing will bring the largest benefits.

    When you know your heat requirement you will be in a better position to decide.
    I understand GSHp costs about £1000 per Kw to install with a surface loop so you will need to know Kw.

    Wood boliers will cost a lot less per Kw to install.
  2.  
    GSHP option seems wildly costly given the amount of wall insulation I think you have not got. Can you get hardwood logs. I realise the offcuts are free or cheap and heat very quickly, but you must spend half your life stoking the fire and de-tarring the chimney. Can you have a massive scheme of insulation? Then you will spend less on heating plant and running costs.
  3.  
    We had a quote for £6k for GSHP, then the fitting is on top.
    Wood bioler wa slightly more, but I suspect much less fitting.
    We are currently undergoing roof insualtion, now we have decided to go cheap and cheerful, but there is little else to insulate.
    We have D/G, which is being replaced with new units made from a high quality douglas fir and futurN coated glass and argon filling.

    Is there something else I should look at?

    How do I calculate the U value of a house which has some walls at nearly 2' thick and some about 12", some timber framed, some just solid brick. Is there a nice little chart on-line somewhere to help me out?
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeFeb 5th 2007
     
    There is a product called builddesk whichyou can download for free it will help you to work out your u values.

    http://www.builddesk.co.uk/sw49334.asp
  4.  
    Just checking what happens when I do this :)
  5.  
    What size was the HP for which you were quoted £6k? Ours was £7500 RRP (albeit with an integral HWC), and is 6kW (we reduced heat-load from c24kW unimproved to about 5.5 improved). Our bldg is c130m2. Yours does not sound like it has a small heat load. Sounds like you might benefit from an energy rating with its attendant calculations. I realise those in favour of exposed thermal mass might disagree but (assuming the ext of the bldg is something nice to look at) what about internal insulated 'dry-lining'? Easy DIY and a very good guide via the EST web-site.
  6.  
    9Kw from Ice Energy, £6,900, less £1,500 grant, supplied, but not fitted.

    The outside is very nice to look at, the inside is even nicer and we may even be listed for our internals, if EH ever get working on it, so I can't see us ever putting in any dry lining over timber framing!!

    Not sure what - (we reduced heat-load from c24kW unimproved to about 5.5 improved). - means.

    Graham
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2007
     
    I'm very interested in these prices

    It makes the £12K plus underfloor heating I was quoted look very expensive
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2007
     
    Katymac

    That price is for the GSHP unit only it doesnt include UFH or rads so you can't really compare it to your cost.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2007
     
    But surely £12 plus ufh is a lot more than you guys are paying?

    Does it include the pipes under the ground?
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2007
     
    The installed cost of GSHP with a slinky is normally about £1k per Kw. plus VAT.

    The cost of installing the slinky is not cheap unless you do it yourself.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 17th 2007
     
    How far under the ground do they have to be? As we are rural I know men with tractors/diggers etc (they call it "plant" apparently:wink:)

    I wonder if the Strawbale will give me enough insulation to have a GSHP
  7.  
    For our house we'd need
    2 trenches, 63m long, 1m wide, 1m deep and 2m apart. (minimum)
    In that we'd have 500m of figure of 8 pipe.

    £6,900 includes the pump, pipe and delivery and VAT.

    We could have a longer trench so we don't have to figure 8 the pipe, this should in theory be better, also it could be a little deeper and further apart is better.

    Need 3" sand in bottom, pipe then 3" of sand on top before backfilling with soil.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 18th 2007
     
    My building is 20 m long and there is a field next to it - so it needs to be a metre deep & 2m apart - so in 20m I could get 7 lenghts about 30m long

    Hmm how much can a man with a digger dig in a day?

    I can have 5 days of digging (I have been lent the digger - I need to pay fuel (to get it there plus the job) & the drivers wage plus lots of bacon sandwiches while he is working)

    I've got the septic tank and (i hope) 2 rainwater harvesting tanks plus the groudworks for the car park 600 sqm and 50 linear metres of path way

    Could you do that plus the GSHP in 5 days (incl filling in) they don't need to be 5 concurrent days - but they do need to be whole days
  8.  
    Graham,

    "(we reduced heat-load from c24kW unimproved to about 5.5 improved)" meant that the building (www.syec.co.uk) in its unimproved state needed a roughly 24kW boiler to achieve 21 deg C. After insulation we got that down to 5.5 kW, and installed a 6 kW Thrmia HP.

    Nick
  9.  
    Nick,

    With you now, excellent.

    Katymac
    It all depends on what the ground is. We had a 500m (18"x36" deep) trench dug in two days, some of that was through hardcore, most was 15" top soil and then clay, up and down some slopes, under fences.....

    If it is all soil then he should be able to dig a fair amount more, but beware that soil will fill itself in for you quite happily!!!!

    I was laying the pipes as he was digging whilst it was snowing!!! Not a nice job.
  10.  
    As a supplier Eco Angus i would suggest the following from a wood boiler perspective.
    As far as your planned area is concerned if you were to improve your roof insulation and hence reduce your heat loss then a 25kW boiler would suffice with a 1000l tank.
    The largest of these 2 is the accumulator tank which is 2053mm High and 1050mm wide including the width of the insulation jacket.
    If this is an issue we supply Akvaterm tanks and there are oval accumulator tanks that might work for you
    see....http://www.akvaterm.fi/eng/Accumulators/Akvantti.40.html
    Our package would be typically £4700 to £5400 + vat for everything you would need (boiler/accumulator/circulating pump/laddomat 21-60/chimney fan/3 way valve/wood hygrometer).
    Just need installation cost and flue on top.
    If interested we have just put a video on our web site demonstrating a 40kW Angus
    Super
    Please see....http://www.ecoangus.co.uk/angus_super_boiler.html
    We also have a gallery specifically showing a 60kW Angus Super
    Please
    see....http://www.ecoangus.co.uk/ecoangus_images/super65/index.html

    They typically need loading twice a day from October through to late
    March and you can batch burn for the remaining months where one full
    load will give about 3 to 4 days domestic hot water if required.

    A 25kW would use about 6 tonnes of seasoned logs a year.
    This is equivalent to about a wheel barrow a day in the Winter.
    There are now grants abvailable under the Renewable Heat Initiative

    Details on the RHI enclosed
    There are grants on these boilers under the Renewable Heat Initiative.
    Typically this could pay around £750-1000 i would estimate per year for a
    property of your size for 15 years on one of our biomass boilers
    subject to our MCS approval if installed by an MCS approved installer.
    This grant can be greater than the installed value of the boiler and then you will have your fuel savings on top.

    If you wish to find an MCS approved installer please see the following
    link;
    http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/Home+and+Business+Owners/Microgeneration+Installers/Biomass+Boilers

    There are also grants available for GSHP under RHI just wanted to give the wood boiler information for your consideration.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2010
     
    Are you advertising Winterbourne? As a supplier you should keep your comments more of a general nature. My memory is a bit hazy but hasn't someone mentioned this to you before?
  11.  
    I am in exactly the same position as you Skier but I have not got the land to trench for the GSHP so it would be bore hole for me. The cost of this is a little steep and it is easy to forget that the heating and DHW is not free after this. A friend of mine has installed a GSHP with 3x 80m bores and his electrcity has gone up by approx £100 per month. £1200 per annum is not too bad but takes the edge of the system when I look at installation costs. Also as the GSHP uses so much power it is not really green as some power station are at 40% efficiency and also you have losses for cable runs before the power to get to you! This is where locally generated wind and biomass power helps but that is another question!!! I have still not ruled a HP out though although I have dropped the ASHP idea. For the record though I am building a new property so my heat load should be less than yours,
    gusty.
  12.  
    I've now got a wood burner with back boiler, solar tubes, rayburn all connected to a 900 litre buffer tank, and have heating now :)
  13.  
    Posted By: skier-hughesI've now got a wood burner with back boiler, solar tubes, rayburn all connected to a 900 litre buffer tank, and have heating now :)

    Do you have time to share some of the lessons learned?

    David
  14.  
    What do you want to know? Ask and I'll try to answer.
    Most of my learning came from reading poosts here and elsewhere.
    I tried to get help here but it was limited, maybe I asked the wrong questions, I'm not a plumber, I don't understand the intricacies of the work, so at the end of the day after inviting loads of "experts" to come and quote on work and give me ideas, I picked a firm who I liked the chaps who came to see me, they were enthusiastic about the work, they could do it (most couldn't) and what they suggested as a plan to do what I wanted my heating to do sounded right, so that was that :)
  15.  
    Does the buffer tank contain a heat exchanger for domestic hot water or do you have separate tank for that? What do you use as a solar controller? Do you have a separate controller for heating?

    David
  16.  
    buffer is 900 litres total with a 200 dhw tank of 200 litres inside it.
    They fitted a whole host of controllers, so depending on what is happening depends on what's pumping, but we have what looks like quite a sophisticated solar controller, which if I remember right turns on the solar heating if the input is hotter than the output by 6' and also shows the upper tank temp and the lower tank temp.
    Our back boiler and the oil fired rayburn both input heat into the tank as well, along with another pump if we used the rayburn to top up the tank by using the heating side of it, which we don't intend to use.
    So all heat the big tank and this heats the smaller internal tank.
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