Green Building Forum - is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? Thu, 20 Jun 2013 04:56:12 +0100 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=2601#Comment_2601 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=2601#Comment_2601 Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:40:37 +0100 funcrusher On the old forum there was debate about the CO2 cycle. Summarising, the argument 'for' was that woodburning simply returned to the atmosphere the carbon previously absorbed by the growing tree, and which would anyway be liberated by decay. The argument 'against' was that burning fossil fuels was doing exactly the same thing, but with a time lag of a few million years, and anyway an unfelled tree would carry on absorbing more carbon and there was no guarantee that burned wood would be replanted.
However there are I think two further arguments against. Firstly, burning timber produces far more gases than just CO2. There is a whole range of nasty toxic compounds emitted, depending on the temperature. Overall, wood smoke is a very dangerous carcinogen. Secondly, wood left to rot returns humus to the soil and also supports both directly and indirectly an immense array of fauna and flora in the rotting process. Sanitised woodland denies bats, bird, fungi, insects, bugs and ferns etc homes and /or food which abound in dying or rotten trees.
Perehaps at best there is only a case for burning timber which is being discarded after a useful life in buildings, furniture etc?]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=2607#Comment_2607 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=2607#Comment_2607 Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:44:00 +0100 MrT has to be froe m well managed woods, well seasoned, air dried for at least 2 years before burning(some wood like ash seasons quicker). The stoves must be high efficiency. I use an old villagers stove which is fitted with a damper on the flue, this damper slow down the burn rate so I never use it. People like to leave stove in over
night on slow burn but this is not efficient. I'm looking at getting another stove for my kitchen which will produce
DHW. Sadly heating the water will impair the clean burn as most of the sotves I've seen have the boiler in the fire box.

Yes wood is a good source of fuel but steps must be taken to avoid loss of habitat, conservation of supply and efficient burning.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=2608#Comment_2608 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=2608#Comment_2608 Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:09:18 +0100 Chris Wardle
I don't agree with chopping down trees specifically for firewood, growing trees are far too valuable a resource, but firewood is a good use for off-cuts, thinnings and scrap timber and forms part of the traditional pattern of woodland management. There is no "magic bullet", pollution free energy source. Best that we can do is develop a range of options each of which can play a part in replacing some of the energy we currently get from fossil fuels.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5529#Comment_5529 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5529#Comment_5529 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:56:43 +0100 fostertom is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5531#Comment_5531 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5531#Comment_5531 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:44:58 +0100 Terry As with all forms of energy generation we need to do what we can to limit the impact.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5533#Comment_5533 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5533#Comment_5533 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:52:33 +0100 tony is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5535#Comment_5535 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5535#Comment_5535 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:16:22 +0100 Chris Wardle
I'm not bothered about the other pollutants. If they were that bad Ray Mears would be dead already.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5539#Comment_5539 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5539#Comment_5539 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:31:52 +0100 GBP-Keith
Our goal has to be to educate everyone to burn it sensibly - adequate drying and super-efficient boilers.

A strong argument in favour of woodburning is that personally, I have trebled the acreage of land under woodland cover on my farm (and I certainly will not sanitize it all) because of my desire to use more wood and this kind of positive action is becoming more commonplace in society generally whereas previous generations were just clearing woodland as nuisance.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5544#Comment_5544 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5544#Comment_5544 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:35:33 +0100 MrT
My supplier, FSC certified is a forester who looks works on huge areas of woodland is devon/somerset. A certain amount of wood needs to be cleared to maintain the balance of light and also preserve the area for tourism etc. All of the logs I got this year have been seasoned for 2 years and is beech wood cleared because of the drought conditions of recent summers affected the roots making the trees dangerous as they were on road sides and pathways. It would be a shameful waste not to utilise this as a resource. Also much of the firewood comes form coppice woods where the trees are pruned and therefore continue to remove CO2 from the atmosphere.

Personally I would like to see more of the UK converted to woodlands. To much land is occupied by the meat industry. Maybe if we cut down on meat production we could grow more trees and crops.

As for pollution. Why is wood burning worse than coal gas? You can get dry seasoned wood, also efficient stoves are available. More should be done to encourage clean burn technology.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5551#Comment_5551 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5551#Comment_5551 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:10:20 +0100 biffvernon is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5552#Comment_5552 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5552#Comment_5552 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:37:55 +0100 tony is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5553#Comment_5553 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5553#Comment_5553 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:00:36 +0100 GBP-Keith
We plan to plant 75% of the farm with native woodland before leaving. That alone would be enough to sustain the wood boilers of a small community if necessary.

What Funcrusher failed to address in his opening speech is the true societal cost of a fossil fuel addiction - war and terror

High-tech stuff like heat pumps will do little to ease the cold turkey.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5555#Comment_5555 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5555#Comment_5555 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:35:39 +0100 biffvernon
If we have already released more CO2 into the air than is safe, this may be the best route.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5557#Comment_5557 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5557#Comment_5557 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:30:10 +0100 Chris Wardle
No reason why we need to burn the timber to use forestry as a carbon sink. We could just plant a whole lot more durable timber and, when it is mature, use it for making high quality furniture and in long lasting buildings. The CO2 is then locked up indefinitely. First step is to stop burning the rain forest down though or else we are urinating into a hurricane force wind.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5560#Comment_5560 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5560#Comment_5560 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:05:45 +0100 tony is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5562#Comment_5562 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5562#Comment_5562 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:40:11 +0100 Chris Wardle is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5563#Comment_5563 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5563#Comment_5563 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:42:28 +0100 tony is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5565#Comment_5565 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5565#Comment_5565 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:56:11 +0100 nigel Posted By: tonySo should we be advocating joining them?

And what should we be using instead?

Advocating not using wood is fine providing you can advocate a better alternative.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5566#Comment_5566 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5566#Comment_5566 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:59:52 +0100 fostertom Posted By: biffvernonThe process of photosynthesis - combustion - flue gas - capture - storage looks likely to be the most practicable route, and the heat energy produced is a bonusI hadn't quite thought of it like that - neat.
Posted By: Chris WardleNo reason why we need to burn the timber to use forestry as a carbon sink. We could just plant a whole lot more durable timber and, when it is mature, use it for making high quality furniture and in long lasting buildings. The CO2 is then locked up indefinitely
That's equally good Chris - buildings are a prime place to lock away unoxidised HC--- hydrocarbons (timber and other biomass, hemp husks etc) nice and dry and warm so they don't rot (oxidise back to CO2 and H2O) for the forseeable.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5568#Comment_5568 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5568#Comment_5568 Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:58:49 +0100 biffvernon is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5569#Comment_5569 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5569#Comment_5569 Sun, 12 Aug 2007 09:50:47 +0100 fostertom Posted By: biffvernonIt is using the trees as CO2 atmospheric scrubbers. This actually works better than artificially trying to get the tiny amount of CO2 out of the atmosphere. It is relatively easy to capture CO2 from the flue gas where it forms the bulk of the gasThis also is a good way of looking at it - provided the woodburning is instead of, rather than in addition to, burning other kinds of fuel (fossil) that haven't recently scrubbed their carbon content out of the atmosphere.

The latter (in addition to) is of course what's going to happen - all growth of renewable, nuclear etc energy supply will be gratefully lapped up by an energy-hungry world while oil will continue to be burnt just as fast as it can be produced - and it's being produced today faster than ever before and will continue to rise till it peaks somewhere in the next 10yrs. There's probably still as much fossil fuel going to be burnt over the next 50yrs as has been burnt in total so far - so get scrubbing!]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5573#Comment_5573 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5573#Comment_5573 Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:20:55 +0100 biffvernon is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5596#Comment_5596 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5596#Comment_5596 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:15:07 +0100 fostertom Posted By: biffvernonIt seems to be bumping along a plateau at around 85 million barrels per day. Light sweet crude has already peaked and we're probably at about the peak for all liquids. Time will tellMy guess is that it's a temporary plateau.
Posted By: biffvernonThere is a lot of uncertainty about how quickly coal and the unconventional oils can be exploited
As oil price really begins to go up and up steadily (which hasn't quite taken hold yet), driven not by supplies running out but by demand (China etc) rising fast, then it gets economic to extract these unconventionals and I think the growing demand will be partly met, i.e. production growth will resume. In fact, as price rises and rises, the peak could be postponed for quite a while. However oil eventually will become too expensive to burn as cheap fuel, reserved only for mobile fuel i.e. air and surface transport, and for chemical feedstock.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5601#Comment_5601 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5601#Comment_5601 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:56:37 +0100 biffvernon is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5606#Comment_5606 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5606#Comment_5606 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:03:24 +0100 fostertom Posted By: biffvernonThe rate of production is perhaps more important than the final totalAnother important point - but that rate of production must include coal.

Anyway, all that we enlightened ones achieve by a) demand reduction and b) substitution of renewables for fossil burning, will have no direct effect on slowing the global rate of production/burning of fossil fuels, because if we're consequently consuming less, the spare will just be gratefully soaked up by the fuel-hungry developing world - in fact all we'll achieve is to slow the rate of fossil price increase a bit, for their benefit!

That's not to say we shouldn't pursue a) and b), but do it c) to get out of Putin's power, d) to no longer need to rape the Middle East, Nigeria etc, d) as a practical way for the unenlightened to rediscover Gaia, how we're part of her, and treat her with some respect, or to put that another way, e) get our own house in order.

I'm sure that humans' long-term future is to resume harnessing ever-increasing quantities of energy (nothing's going to stop us heading out for the stars) but just now we have to take a step back and learn how to do so without fouling our own nest, wherever that may be - and that's actually a state of mind, of awareness, of consciousness - spiritual in fact. That's our present task, in these 2 or 3 decades, and it's going well in my opinion.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5612#Comment_5612 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5612#Comment_5612 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:24:18 +0100 biffvernon
But coal is also a finite resource and the commonly held view that there is 'no shortage of that' is way off the mark. Peak Coal will follow hard on the heals of Peak Oil. For an up to date review of the latest reports of world coal see Coal: The Roundup, by Chris Vernon at http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/2726]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5617#Comment_5617 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5617#Comment_5617 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:31:23 +0100 fostertom
BTW, a far higher priority than giving up air travel, is that we should all give up cement and concrete. The cement manufacturing industry - just manufacturing, not using - produces more CO2 than the entire air industry, manufacture and operation, and is rising just as fast. But anti-air-holidays is a far easier target for the self-righteous and puritanical, than the other. If there's one kind of thing our precious fossil reserves should be used for, it's life-enhancing stuff like cheap travel. Not all travellers are drunken Benidorm-bound, who couldn't tell if they were still in Bradford. Imagine a world where overseas travel was only available to politicians, business, military and media. It's the fact than everyone can go and see for themselves, that now limits the ancient tradition of spreading lies and myths about foreigners, for god knows what motives.]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5621#Comment_5621 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5621#Comment_5621 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:54:53 +0100 Mike George Posted By: fostertomMore good news.

BTW, a far higher priority than giving up air travel, is that we should all give up cement and concrete

Do you have a proposal for something [available in sufficient quantities] we can use instead?]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5624#Comment_5624 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5624#Comment_5624 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:19:44 +0100 Chris Wardle
Concrete is really useful stuff but I do agree that we should be using a lot less of it. I still don't understand while we have to have such monolithic footings under everything we build these days. Go back 100 years and they just chucked some flat bits of stone in a trench and bricked off that. I think compressed earth blocks made on site could make real in roads into embodied energy in building by replacing bricks and concrete blocks. I'd like to see this research more thoroughly and then put into practice in the UK particularly as we have such poor structural timber resources.

Please explain, Tom, how you think things are "going well" because all I see is things going badly and its starting to depress me... I could do with cheering up a bit....]]> is wood-burning eco-friendly or eco-vandalism? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5627#Comment_5627 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=235&Focus=5627#Comment_5627 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:05:11 +0100 fostertom Posted By: Chris Wardlewe just take it for granted and start going on stag dos in Prague etcSpeak for yourself?
Posted By: Chris Wardlethey just chucked some flat bits of stone in a trench and bricked off that. I think compressed earth blocks made on site could make real in roads into embodied energy in building by replacing bricks and concrete blocks. I'd like to see this research more thoroughly and then put into practice in the UK
That's the right sort of answer to yr Q, Mike George.
Posted By: Chris Wardleexplain, Tom, how you think things are "going well" because all I see is things going badly
Read The Crisis Point by Ervin Laszlo, ignore a great deal of naive "everybody should be good" and an eco-crisis summary that's better left to Al Gore, but the core is right - we're experiencing the ever-faster and more extreme oscillations that occur in the ultra-sensitive Decision Window just before the Crisis Point of Systems theory - where Crisis doesn't necessarily mean Bad - it just means that everything after is an unimaginable leap into something unprecedented - like the moment when a pre-human made the first tool. He puts it at 2012 and I get that feeling too, not just cos the Mayans said so. Like the tool-making moment, it's not just a technological leap but a quantum leap in awareness - like what comes after mere self-consciousness, which we've been exploring for the last million, or50k yrs or whatever? We on this forum are a small part of a global awareness of a new kind, that's rapidly reaching critical mass, thanks to the likes of George Bush, who's kindly made the issues starkly visible.]]>