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Housing - Renovation: Insulating pipework

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2008
     
    Oh dear. I think I have messed up. Plumber has just installed all the pipework, but used 22mm pipe (Hep) everywhere for hot and cold supply (except for final run to here shower, basin, kitchen sink, etc. are going to be). I was so concerned about other things I never discussed pipe sizing with him. We are planning to use water saving fittings everywhere. I need to preserve as much heat in the pipework as possible. What's the best thing to insulate themwith? As far as I can see, Armaflex and Climaflex provide same level of insulation; only difference is the temp upto which you can use them. Is this correct? If I use 19mm thick Climaflex on all 22mm pipework, spray foam into the holes in joists, and then bury the pipework in mineral wool (or possibly Celotex?) Is that the best thing to do? Shower and bathroom basin only have short runs (5m and 7m), but kitchen run is around 18m and will be getting longer in a year or so, after we get round to building an extension.
    • CommentAuthorstorm
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2008
     
    I have read an impressive list of various use's for Thermilate ( thermal paint) Apparently it is extremely useful for painting on to pipes for its insulating properties. I have been seriously considering the idea for all our pipe work once we get our extension under way .....
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeAug 16th 2008
     
    Too many things going on and I'm not seeing things clearly. In fact he has sized all the pipes correctly, so most of it is 15mm. I'll still insulate as best I can. What do I do when I get to joins and bends (compression fittings).

    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: storm</cite>I have read an impressive list of various use's for Thermilate ( thermal paint) Apparently it is extremely useful for painting on to pipes for its insulating properties. I have been seriously considering the idea for all our pipe work once we get our extension under way .....</blockquote>

    Are you suggesting Thermilate is better than standard pipe insulation?
    • CommentAuthorstorm
    • CommentTimeAug 17th 2008
     
    I really cannot make any claims for the product as I have not yet tried it personally. Below is an extract from an article I came across. I suggest that you contact the company direct to find out exactly what you need to know. It would be interesting to learn if anyone on this forum has used Thermilate for pipe insulation and what the result has been ? I understand they have been using it in saudi arabia for oil pipes and all sorts of large companies seem to have used it extensively. It sounds a real paint additive miracle to me ! but at the same time one should always be wary of claims made however many glowing testamonials we might read. I know I was really impressed with the testamonials I originally came across for Ground source heat pumps....... then a while later I heard a lot of negatives.... Who knows! . Research,research, research, that's what I have found pays off in the end.


    " Thermilate is the powder that makes paint insulate! The microspheres within the powder act as mini thermos flasks. Thermilate powder is mixed with ordinary paint (one pack mixes into 5 litres of paint) to make an insulating coating that can keep heat in or out. Ideal for insulating buildings, rooms, water tanks, hot or cold water pipes..... "
  5.  
    Armflex is very expensive and used for class 'o' situations , ie air conditioning and heat pumps etc.( though there much cheaper class 'o' makes out there)
    I use climaflex or similiar for insulating HW pipes
    25/15 for 15mm pipes
    on the corners I cut them at 45o and then use a sliding stanley knife to cut out a section to take the
    bend ,compression or push fit etc. then use duck tape to join it tightly together

    the water seems to stay warmish for up to 20-30 minutes
    regularly used HW taps it seems to make sense
    but if say you only run a bath once a day is it worth the effort?

    smaller bore sizes (10mm) would have a better effect , certainly to say a basins ,where flow rate is not of great importance

    cheers Jim
  6.  
    I'm currently in the process of lagging my new pipework, crawling round the roof spaces through glass fibre insulation and itching like mad (nobody tells me how to have a good time!). I've done all the copper pipework (15 and 22 mm) but there's quite a lot of plastic pipe up there. Does this need to be lagged just the same or does the plastic provide its own insulation?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2008
     
    All this talk about insulating pipes -- well it wont stop the hot water pipes cooling down only slow down the process. So is it worth it? In winter the heat will add to the incidental gains and in summer the losses will be less but in both cases the heat will be lost into the house any way! So again why lag?

    OK so you want to save water so when you run the hot tap always have the plug in and use the first bit that comes out cold. Smaller pipes would save a bit but you could end up with insufficient flow. --- May be we could go back to jugs and bowls?
    • CommentAuthorarthur
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2008
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: tony</cite>In winter the heat will add to the incidental gains and in summer the losses will be less but in both cases the heat will be lost into the house any way! So again why lag?</blockquote>

    In summer you don't want any extra heat, so the energy is wasted. No?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    In summer you don't want any extra heat, so the energy is wasted. No?


    You cannot stop the hot water in the pipes cooling down and therefore adding that heat to the house in summer you can only slow it down. The total ammount of heating effect will be the same insulated or not.
    • CommentAuthorPete1951
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    Tony, the total amount of heat lost and therefore the heating effect will be different if the pipes are insulated and by what thickness of insulation than if they are not insulated. Using your argument there would be no point in insulating a DHW tank. In a PassivHaus all the heat gains and losses are calculated including losses from hot water pipes because the overall heat input to the house is important both in winter and summer.
  11.  
    In your average UK home it makes sense to me , to insulate frequently used HW runs , ie kitchen sink, utility sink, also pipe runs from the HW cylinder
    in the airing cupboard could be insulated a certain distance to reduce cylinder heat loss
    Anything up in the loft should be insulated , certainly central heating pipes , though if there under a good level of insulation (300mm+)would this still apply?
    Plastic pipes loss heat like copper pipes , but should only expand if frozen , rather than burst
    But if they do freeze you'll have differcutly , flushing your loo etc. I'd insulate them ,like copper.

    cheers Jim
    • CommentAuthorarthur
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2008
     
    <blockquote><cite>
    You cannot stop the hot water in the pipes cooling down and therefore adding that heat to the house in summer you can only slow it down. The total ammount of heating effect will be the same insulated or not.</blockquote>

    Tony's point is interesting. But what about when the hot water is actually running - for a shower or bath for example, heat will be saved then with insulation won't it, perhaps not much though.

    Also, although the water will likely cool down anyway, might the insulation be enough for the pipes not to cool completely to the ambient temperature - meaning that when they have a headstart when hot water is run again?
    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2008
     
    Just a small point, most water saving fittings do not tend to work effectively off of low pressure and low flow rates, basically you need either an unvented or thermal store DHW system.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2008
     
    FWIW, In America it seems to be common to have a "T" junction close to each hot water tap, then a thermostat and a circulation pump. the basic idea is to keep the hot water hot all the time right up to the tap by circulating the cooled down "hot" water back to the DHW tank!!!!!!
    Frank
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2008
     
    Chuckey - that's one reason the americans are top of the energy-use league. This system uses energy for the circulation pump and you lose heat from the circulating hot water (unless your pipes are lagged significantly better than your tank). Smarter set-ups turn the pump on when there is a demand or certain times of the day, but in most sensible-sized house this is an extravagant way to do things.

    Storm. Thermalite paint is guff. You can't get significant insulation by putting pixie dust into paint.

    Tony, yes, ultimately you'll lose the same heat in dead legs, but the cooling period will be _much_ longer. If the tap is used again before that time is up you've saved. And as arthur says - loses in operation are also reduced.
  16.  
    My experience is a well insulated 15mm pipe (25/15 climaflex, taped at tight joins ) 5m long, stays useably warm for 20-30 minutes
    feed from a combi boiler
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2014 edited
     
    As a point of interest the AECB Water Standards say:
    All hot and cold pipes greater than 12mm outside diameter must be insulated with continuous insulation with all joints glued. Cold water pipes shall be installed below hot water pipes to reduce heat transfer.

    This excludes exposed pipework at final connections and pipework to bath only.
  18.  
    Nearly 7 years; is that the new record?
  19.  
    I did not understand GNL's comment at first. I thought it was in response to Jamesingram's post:

    ''My experience is a well insulated 15mm pipe (25/15 climaflex, taped at tight joins ) 5m long, stays useably warm for 20-30 minutes''

    Yes, I thought, compared with 20-30 minutes, 7 years is some kind of record!!
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2014
     
    no matter how well insulated the pipes are they will reach room temperature fairly quickly, within half an hour by the looks and so what is the point of insulating them at all?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2014
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: tony</cite>es, I thought, compared with 20-30 minutes, 7 years is some kind of record!!</blockquote>

    Insulating them reduces the heat lost while using the hot water, also even 20 minutes is enough to allow the 2nd person to use the shower without waiting for it to heat up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2014
     
    Was there not some discussion some time ago that adding insulation to pipes can increase the losses, something to do with the diameter increasing and the insulation not being good enough. Never too any notice of it at the time.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 14th 2014
     
    ringi, it would not be possible to save enough for a second person to have a shower, the savings are very small.
  24.  
    The point is if you are cooking you use a little bit of hot water frequently, often when it is bed time the household uses hot water to wash, each person within a short period of time, same with showers - each time insulated pipes mean almost instant hot water after the first use (saving time and frustration and using luke warm water because one can't be bothered to wait), then there is a saving in the energy required to heat the water (as Tony says very small) and then there is the wasted water - I have insulated all my HW pipes and it blxxdy marvellous - can't understand why it is not the norm.
  25.  
    Posted By: SteamyTeaadding insulation to pipes can increase the losses
    Yes you are right ST but as I remember it, the result was for all real world scenarios ie reasonable insulation, the insulation works well and only under very large increases in dia does this wacky result occur.

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