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General: Patent rules and costs

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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    I'd strongly suggest a chance meeting on a lonely country lane, tho I hear they've got snooping drones now that look like a hovering bird.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    I'd strongly suggest whispering a phone number and then making contact privately, with due regard to disclosure as it applies to patent law.

    Yes, and even then a private call can count as disclosure unless the expectation of confidentiality, prior to making the call, is established (preferably in writing)
  3.  
    Presumably a patent attourneys confidentiallity is a given and a prior CA is unecessary?
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012 edited
     
    I'd strongly suggest a chance meeting on a lonely country lane, tho I hear they've got snooping drones now that look like a hovering bird.

    You're getting into the swing of this patenting lark Tom. Might be a little excessive though?

    Having said that, during the automatic filing process, if you ask for a filing receipt (just to show you've filed, not what it is), the Patent Office remind you that emails sent are not necessarily secure and ask you to confirm that you've understood and agree to it.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    Presumably a patent attourneys confidentiallity is a given and a prior CA is unecessary?

    Correct. You have a reasonable expectation of confidentiality when visiting a patent attorney.
  6.  
    Mike, are you still connected with University, unis often have a Commercialisation office who can guide you through this. Also the subsequent stages of turning the idea into hard cashflow...

    I invented something during a masters project, I agreed with my uni that they will patent and market the idea, I gave them my rights in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. So far, net income has been £0 but at least the uni paid the legal fees.
  7.  
    Hi Will, No, not been given any work by the Uni since May last year. Nice thoufght though. Bonus is they have no claim :bigsmile:

    Jon, thanks again. I have an attourney visiting me at home today
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    Posted By: jonsnooping drones now that look like a hovering bird
    Posted By: jonthis patenting lark
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: fostertom</cite>I'd strongly suggest a chance meeting on a lonely country lane, tho I hear they've got snooping drones now that look like a hovering bird.</blockquote>

    My comment about whispers wasn't implying anything underhand or sinister.

    This forum is commercially owned and operated by a publisher, and the owners and any forum administrators can, and sometimes do, read all the whispered messages. Disclosing details of an invention to a publisher before filing with the patent office would almost certainly invalidate the patent claim.
  10.  
    Thanks Jeremy.. I won't be whispering details:bigsmile: Mr Paranoid me
  11.  
    Just met an Attourney.

    Apparently It is possible to just make a very broad outline registration myself in order to start the ball rolling. I then have a full year to employ him or someone else to ammend the application. Thus spreading the fees over a year. :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    And the fee is?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    FWIW my brother used to be an EPO patent examiner and has now turned into some sort of hideous Parisian patent 'lawyer' (not the sort of thing we talk about in the family, natch) and I'm sure that I could pass contact details back and forth for a quote/estimate for EPO-related fees.

    Rgds

    Damon
  14.  
    The fee is pretty much the same Steamy. Unless I look elsewhere. Though I'm inclined to go with someone local as I like to do things face to face. Will sleep on it though and possibly explore some of the offers of help here. I will at the very least shop around locally. I did pick a well reknowned firm for the initial advice - there are others locally but not such big players. Whether that matters.....

    Thanks Damon, I may take you up on that!
  15.  
    ahhhhh Rodney.. this time next year....
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    Posted By: JSHarrisThe best example is China, where the concept of IPR is seemingly unheard of, and everyone copies everything freely and sells it on the world market.
    Worked for a company that had stuff made in China. They wanted to replicate a plastic paint holder and showed one to the Chinese guy. He had a good look at it and said it would be difficult as it was not patented. When asked why, the reply was that as it was not patented there would be no drawings to use!!
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    Apparently It is possible to just make a very broad outline registration myself in order to start the ball rolling.

    Has he recommended a registered design rather than a patent? (registered designs are called design patents in the USA whereas patents in the UK are called utility patents in the US). Registered designs can give a lot of protection, particularly if there are specific relative dimensions that your invention must have in order to function.

    If patents, he's right, but remember that it may end up costing you more for him to negotiate with the examiner at the 'search stage' (one year in) if the wording you used does not precisely match what you wanted to show. If the patent's body is well drafted, he'll be able to re-use phrases in the claims (you can write the claims yourself at this stage and it's probably worthwhile doing so, but expect that the eventual claims will be different from what you write now)

    Also, if you file now for protection, as long as you get everyone to look at it confidentially, you can withdraw it and re-file it again later (but you must follow the exact sequence.. you can't re-file and then withdraw the old one). As soon as you've revealed it to one person not in confidence, the possibility to re-file can be gone (though sometimes there are ways and means).

    Take a look at the example patent I sent through (the docs are available as a pdf in the link on the blogsite). In that you'll see the process: After the search was done, the examiner found some existing inventions that were very similar to the original (very broad) single claim against which the patent was searched (you also have the option to re-file claims before the initial search). After search, if the examiner finds anything, the next process is to re-file the claims before going for publication. (another 6 months minimum)

    The claims and the summary are the only things you can alter, so get lots of good drawings in and lots of descriptive text. The downside to doing this is that it can cost you more if you go for EPO or PCT at a later date.

    Then you file for grant (another 6 month wait). At this stage it gets examined in detail.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2012
     
    The points above about having the financial resources to defend a patent are good. What I've heard, though, is that you can get insurance against having to do that. The point is that having the insurance means that an infringer is less likely to let things get to court so the actual cost of any claim will be much less than you would have to pay if you didn't have the insurance. Worth asking your patent attorney about this, I think.
  19.  
    Hi, i
    I have been involved in patentable work. And one company has a patent on one of my designs. Ast this was not novel in my opinion they just did it to have a patent pending. I am currently involved with two companies one measures time(s) to nano second accuracy and does not patent anything - this is a good approach for them as "the knowledge" to do this with low power and with fast algorithms takes a lot of time to work out. The other company has patented designs - but they are infringed upon and after talking to them they are letting the patents lapse as it is costly to maintain them and incredibly costly to prosecute. They have decided the best route is to just do it and keep as much hidden as possible. By the time any rivals catch up they will be working on the next generation of product. I did look at other protection and found this:-

    http://www.trevorbaylisbrands.com/?gclid=CKzXi_fVqq0CFVBlfAod2F51lQ

    Basically they will advise and do a patent search for about £300. Trevor Baylis the inventor set it up.

    Good luck. This type of thing is exciting and jolly good fun.

    Richard
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2012
     
    I take it you have had a look on here:
    https://www.google.co.uk/?tbm=pts
  21.  
    Hi,
    Google is useful for some stuff. But a proper patent search is another thing. You need to consider patents that may mention the idea in other ways. Also there are other ways to protect ideas and designs such as registered designs. Do not forget if you patent an idea it basically is in the public domain - this does not mean google will find it.

    Richard
  22.  
    A friend of mine used to work for a company who paid royalties to use a patent and it all worked well for a couple of years. Then another company sued them and the guy with the patent for infringement of their patent claiming they should receive the royalties. My friends companies legal eagles advice was to fight it all the way so 800k later in legal fees the advice was roll over and pay them. by this time there was insufficient funds to sue for poor legal advice, dam near broke a great company.

    My point is one patent was car related and the other was toys! so if it was my idea (I get less and less of those these days) I would try and get the best advice I could afford at the start.

    Good luck it sounds exciting!
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2012
     
    A read through the LENR-related threads will bring up that there obviously couldn't be anything in our little Italian's claim to have developed a working model because no patents had been applied for.

    I suggested that the last thing any sensible person would do if they wanted to stop others stealing their ideas (particularly if those ideas solved the problems that were the reasons others had failed) was to file for patents that involved detailing those solutions.

    It's a bit like filing for patents on an anti-ballistic-missile defence system. Tends to leave you a bit wide open. :wink:
  24.  
    Posted By: HalcyonRichardHi, i
    I have been involved in patentable work. And one company has a patent on one of my designs. Ast this was not novel in my opinion they just did it to have a patent pending. I am currently involved with two companies one measures time(s) to nano second accuracy and does not patent anything - this is a good approach for them as "the knowledge" to do this with low power and with fast algorithms takes a lot of time to work out. The other company has patented designs - but they are infringed upon and after talking to them they are letting the patents lapse as it is costly to maintain them and incredibly costly to prosecute. They have decided the best route is to just do it and keep as much hidden as possible. By the time any rivals catch up they will be working on the next generation of product. I did look at other protection and found this:-

    http://www.trevorbaylisbrands.com/?gclid=CKzXi_fVqq0CFVBlfAod2F51lQ" rel="nofollow" >http://www.trevorbaylisbrands.com/?gclid=CKzXi_fVqq0CFVBlfAod2F51lQ

    Basically they will advise and do a patent search for about £300. Trevor Baylis the inventor set it up.

    Good luck. This type of thing is exciting and jolly good fun.

    Richard


    Thanks Richard, I've got their free 'Inventors Pack'
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeAug 11th 2012 edited
     
    Thanks again all. I Had a free visit from an Attourney on Thursday

    Was very informative and I just need to decide what to do. I'm probably going to pay him to process 1 [complicated product] application and do the other [simple] application myself. Hopefully I can learn from the format and methodology he uses:bigsmile:

    He advised that I could make the initial application myself using Form 1 here: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/pf01.pdf which is free. I then have a 'date stamp' as it were. I then have a year to either progress it myself or pay him [or someone else] to do so
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 11th 2012
     
    Posted By: JoinerIt's a bit like filing for patents on an anti-ballistic-missile defence system.

    Strangely there is such a thing as a secret patent which is primarily used in the defence industry. “Secret patent” is an oxymoron, of course.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012
     
    In at least the US or UK, AFAIK, the appropriate ministry can simply slap a secrecy notice on any patent and stop it entering the public domain (I'm using the term loosely)...

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: DamonHD</cite>In at least the US or UK, AFAIK, the appropriate ministry can simply slap a secrecy notice on any patent and stop it entering the public domain (I'm using the term loosely)...

    Rgds

    Damon</blockquote>

    Indeed, one of the tasks I had when I was looking after the defence research programme in here was dealing with the complaints from inventors who had had their patents classified. There are only a tiny number of such cases from outside the defence research community, maybe one or two a year, and often the classification is lifted after the patent is reviewed.

    Sometimes an initial notice would be issued because of supposed claims, and then we'd lift it near-enough immediately once we'd read the first page of the patent. One that crossed my desk and that sticks in my mind was a patent for a holographic spy satellite. It got classified instantly, just because of the title, but was very quickly seen to be based on the inventor having a less than normal understanding of the principles of holography (essentially he claimed that, because a holographic prism splits light in a similar way to a real prism you could expand this to make holographic satellites, created by ground based laser projectors, that could be put up instantly wherever you needed them.....................)
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012
     
    Ha ha. Jeremy, remember those early Star Treks and the crazy notion that you could speak to someone on the other side of a planet by just talking into a device on your wrist? Oh, and SEE them whilst doing it?

    Nowadays, I don't hold my breath when someone says something is impossible. :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 12th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: JoinerNowadays, I don't hold my breath when someone says something is impossible

    Ah but do you also remember the teleporter, got around a studio budget problem neatly.

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